42. Government as a Service: Building Tomorrow's Cities with Titus Gebel
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Mizter Rad (00:01.77)
Hello, beautiful humans. You know that feeling when you look at your tax bill or when some new regulation comes out suddenly out of nowhere and messes up with your life? Have you ever wondered why we keep accepting a system where we have no choice but to follow rules we never agreed to? Well, our guest today has a solution that's already taking shape. Meet Titus Gebel. He's an entrepreneur with a PhD in international law.
who got fed up like many of us with traditional politics and decided, unlike many of us, to build something different, free private cities. These are places where the relationship between citizens and government is actually based on a real contract where you know exactly what you're getting and what you're paying for. It's like Netflix, but for governance. And yes, you heard it right, like Netflix or Spotify, but for governance.
And he's not just talking about it. It's not just theory. He's actually building this city step by step. Titus, we get to see how are you?
Titus (01:11.935)
Hello Mr. Rathd or Herr Rad, we would
Mizter Rad (01:15.882)
Get out.
Mizter Rad (01:26.463)
Why did you leave?
Titus (01:28.81)
Well, a variety of reasons. I was seeing the political system going in the wrong direction. We were losing more more freedoms. Taxes are getting higher. And I couldn't see any change to the better. And I also didn't want to pay taxes for the majority of things my government wanted to use them for. And so I...
Mizter Rad (01:55.822)
Mm.
Titus (01:59.473)
emigrated to Monaco, which is a combination of you have no income tax. It's not that there are no taxes. have already high VAT, but there's no income tax, no capital gains tax. It's a nice climate, much better than in Germany where it's raining all the time. it's also living by the sea is something which I really like. If you wake up in the morning, you have blue sky and blue sea, then you feel good.
Mizter Rad (02:19.33)
I know that.
Titus (02:29.735)
I compare this to a rather gray country, especially at that time of the year. It has a lot of advantages. But the main thing was really that I was not really giving a good prognosis of the development of my home country.
Mizter Rad (02:46.348)
Hmm. Interesting. And now do you think it's worse or it got better? 10 years later.
Titus (02:51.507)
where?
yes, it was the right decision. mean, I think more and more people are now coming to me and say, okay, we want to leave the country. Where do we go?
Mizter Rad (03:02.282)
Yeah, how do we do it? OK, let's first start with something I want to imagine with you what this could look like. Like, you know, we live in a world where we're used to government being everywhere. Like, if there is a problem, you call the police. If you need a permit, you go to the city hall. If someone is breaking the rules, you trust the courts to handle your case.
Now, it doesn't work perfectly, but we are used to it and it somehow works in some places better than others. But in free private cities or in parallel societies that we're going to talk more about, you're saying, as far as I understand, that all these services would be provided or most of these services would be provided by private companies and not government institutions. And I want to paint a picture here. Let's say 50 years from now, 2074.
My grandkids, your grandkids, they could be living in one of these cities, one of these free private cities. They might have a different name then, but let's say they're under the concept that we're painting here. What's their daily life like? know, like what happens if their neighbor's music is too loud at night? I know in Germany you can quickly call the Ordnungssamt and hopefully they're there right away.
If you want to open a restaurant in these cities in the future, who gives you the permission to do that? Or if someone steals your bike, who do you call? Walk me through this normal day-to-day kind of issues that you may encounter as a citizen of those cities.
Titus (04:45.705)
Yeah, with pleasure. So I think in 50 years from now, the world would look like much different than the world today when it comes to governments. It's, I would say 90 % of the people who look into the future think we will have a world government. I would say that is not going to happen. The opposite will happen. We will have, I would say maybe 2000 different systems. Today we have 200 countries.
And some of them will be free private cities, which again would be different from each other so that you can choose the government system that you like best, that fits to your personality. We also have to admit that some people don't want freedom, right? They want guidance. They want to have been told what to do. And for those people, maybe systems that
are not so much different from what we have today are better. But I think everybody who will, my clear view is that the representative democracy as we know it today will disappear. It will definitely disappear and will be replaced by democracy of choice, as I call it. And it, yes, that means if you go into a supermarket and you can choose by yourself which products you buy.
Mizter Rad (06:01.73)
Democracy of choice. Okay.
Titus (06:11.613)
You can say, I like this, but it's too expensive. And then you say, okay, I'll buy another one. But you don't have to buy, right? But the current system that we have is exactly like, I want to buy a new mobile phone. And the seller told me, okay, you can buy one, Mr. Rath, but I decide the model, the brand, the storage capacity.
the color and the price. And by the way, you must buy. Nobody would take that deal. But that is exactly the deal we're accepting at the moment with our government. So here's the solution, or here's at least, let's say a product offer in the market of living together, which is called free private settings. And it works as follows. And then I come to your question, how is daily life looking?
Mizter Rad (06:42.914)
Hmm
Mizter Rad (07:03.48)
Yeah.
Titus (07:04.169)
You got a contract, it's a service contract. Basically, it's protection of life, liberty, and property. So the service contract just says, OK, you become a resident of the city. There's a certain civil law system applicable. If you cannot agree with your counterpart, that this will be applicable. And there's security also existing that is protecting the life, liberty, and property. And you pay something for that.
But you know exactly what you have to pay and it will not be more than say $1,500, $2,000 per year that you pay for this protection for the legal framework and the independent dispute resolution. You always know, okay, what cannot happen is that the...
administration or the government says next year, by the way, you have to pay more because we built a swimming pool and we want to send some tanks to Afghanistan or Ukraine. Now, you can always say, no, it's not in my contract. I haven't agreed to that. So I'm not going to pay for that. But people may pay voluntary for that. So how would how would normal life look like? First of all, the people are
They know that they cannot interfere into the contracts of their neighbors. Even if they have a vast majority, they cannot force their neighbors to spend money to the swimming pool, right? The neighbor would say, you build your swimming pool and you can maybe charge a higher fee from me who has not participated, but you cannot force me to do things I do not want. And since everybody knows that this is the case,
Mizter Rad (08:37.518)
Mm.
Titus (08:51.519)
It's much less political than we have today, Because politics doesn't pay out in such a system. There's nothing to gain from winning a majority and forcing the rest to pay for it because there is no forum that rent seekers can hijack. So there's no parliament or whatever that makes decisions and makes decisions every day, every year.
on behalf of everyone because people are sovereign individuals. That means they are just customers. They are not subjects and their rights as a customer is as we already know in this world is in a service contract. And it says, okay, that's what I have to pay. That's what I get. And that these are my obligations. These are my rights. It's impossible from the outside to change this.
And that is the good thing about the model and the trick to avoid what we have today, which is everybody is going to the state and trying to get something out of the state for his own sake. That is not possible in such a system. That means also on the other hand, if you want to open a restaurant, you can just do it. There's a very limited maybe a catalog of things where you need
and a permit by the administration, especially when it's very noisy or it's possible to harm others. Then we would probably say, if you want to make this noisy and dusty factory, you have to go in a certain area. But if you do something that is just not a problem, like a hairdresser or a restaurant, just do it, right? You don't need to go anywhere and ask for permission. Well, if there's a problem,
Mizter Rad (10:24.589)
Hmm.
Titus (10:41.311)
Like an extreme libertarian says, cannot pass by my property with your motorcycle because it's too loud. That is infiltrating my rights. Then there is a mechanism you say, okay, I call the administration and the security and say, okay, what's the problem? they say, no, we have for this cases, for example, there are certain thresholds of noise that you are allowed to make. And you as a property owner cannot.
Mizter Rad (10:49.282)
Hmm. Hmm.
Titus (11:10.975)
prevent that. So it's not that there's no regulation and it's not that there's no security or no dispute resolution. But the general type of dispute resolution is if you have a problem with your neighbor, you can agree with your neighbor to use whatever law and whatever arbitration or court system you want.
Mizter Rad (11:38.54)
Okay.
Titus (11:38.712)
Only for the rare cases that you cannot agree on it, it's listed in the contract what then will apply.
Mizter Rad (11:47.074)
But hold on a second, this contracts are on an individual, like a country has a contract with an individual and the neighbor of that individual can have a different contract with that same country or is it the same contract for everyone kind of.
Titus (12:00.721)
It would be the same contract for everyone, right? Otherwise it's getting very problematic. mean, there may be some exceptions for very large companies which guaranteed that they're bringing 10,000 jobs or so they maybe have some advantages when it comes to payments, but the rights and obligations are the same for everyone. Otherwise it would be too problematic.
Mizter Rad (12:02.828)
It would be the same country. Yeah.
Mizter Rad (12:22.198)
Yeah, okay. There will be some add-ons that some companies and some people can have to their contract, but essentially the
Titus (12:28.669)
Yeah, exactly. is basically the idea is you have a basic package that you must buy. And this package covers mostly security and the dispute resolution, right? Because it's very hard if you have no prior agreement on that to come on terms, which ultimately will maybe lead that the guy with the biggest guns and the biggest security firm can do whatever he wants.
Mizter Rad (12:35.053)
Yeah.
Mizter Rad (12:38.862)
Hmm.
Mm.
Mizter Rad (12:57.25)
Yeah.
Titus (12:57.375)
So in Zotsoil, what we are offering is comparable to cruise ship, right? They're not competing security services on a cruise ship. You buy the cruise and you have security with it. You visit Disneyland or any holiday resort, you have the security in your price, right? And that is the same with free private cities. You say, okay, what I want to do is I would just be myself, associate with my friends, my business partners.
Mizter Rad (13:13.484)
Right.
Titus (13:23.549)
and do whatever I can do best, serve markets as an entrepreneur or make music as an artist, whatever. I can do whatever I do best. can be sure that neither the administration, the government, nor my neighbors, nor any political party or majority is interfering in my rights because my rights are unchangeable in the contract. The contract can only be changed if both parties agree. And in so far, this is a much better position than you have today where...
Every year you get new rules. You have never consented to them. So the so-called social contract is permanently changed, but never from your side. It's always the other side that is making the changes. that's not... I mean, I'm not okay with that. And a lot of other people are also not okay with that because there is no ethical or moral reason to be subject to a law whose validity I have not consented to.
Mizter Rad (13:56.493)
Right.
Mizter Rad (14:08.909)
Right.
Mizter Rad (14:21.006)
Right, right, right, Let me see if I understand something correctly, very quick here. In that contract, the government is agreeing on giving the citizen protection, security, help with conflict resolution or some guidelines or some sort of help with.
Titus (14:21.63)
Why should I?
Titus (14:41.631)
A default conflict resolution if you do not agree with your counterpart on something, but it's not a government in a classical sense. It's a private company because the point and it's for profit and that is important. Why is it for profit? So the free private city model says, okay, there's a private company in a certain area, which is the city that offers you Mr. Raad as a customer to become a resident.
Mizter Rad (14:51.16)
It's a private computer.
Okay.
Titus (15:11.475)
based on a residence contract. And in this contract, it says, okay, you have to pay something for protection of life, liberty and property. There will be some infrastructure and there will be some courts if you have disputes with other people. Other than that, you can top up this contract by making all kinds of other contracts with healthcare providers, with school providers, with hospital, with you name it, right? So the amount that you pay is very, very small.
compared to what you have to pay today. But you have still to take care of education for your kids, healthcare for yourself, old age. But that means you have much more choice. And the other thing is you also will have much more money left to be used for those. So you see what we have calculated is if you want to, as a government, as a private, we call it,
It's an operator, right? It's a government as a service. The operator of the city, as we call it, is providing protection of life, liberty and property on the first world or better level. And now we have calculated back from countries, small countries, larger countries, what protection of life, liberty and property, some infrastructure, this resolution system, what that accounts for.
in a 10,000 people standard environment. And it's less than $1,000 per year. So that means you could live with a system where you have to pay 1,000 or be at 2,000 if it's a smaller system per year. And that covers everything what we know from our government wants from you. And this is also the reason why in 50 years from now,
We will have those systems that are more based on you only pay for what you have ordered and not a force to pay 50 % of your income in taxes.
Mizter Rad (17:19.871)
And taxes to cover something that you never agreed with. Okay, I see what you mean, but let me see. I didn't understand very well what you mean with the $1,000 per year. What is that exactly? What is that calculation?
Titus (17:22.876)
Exactly.
Titus (17:30.623)
If you look at current countries, what they're really spending on the core function of a state, which is protection of life, liberty and property, it's not more than $1,000 per person. Everything else they spend for crap. They spend for things that political interest groups want, especially redistribution, buying votes.
Mizter Rad (17:34.882)
Yeah.
Mizter Rad (17:41.623)
Yeah.
Mizter Rad (17:44.952)
Mm-hmm.
Mizter Rad (17:53.178)
Mizter Rad (17:56.578)
Mm-hmm.
Titus (18:00.211)
Right? This is the biggest normally is everything that has to do with social security. And second biggest is in our time is, is interest rates for all the debt they have. And then maybe in some countries it's military and in other countries it's infrastructure. But you can, what I want to say is that you can make this much, much cheaper, higher quality, better price and
Mizter Rad (18:11.01)
Mm-hmm.
Mizter Rad (18:18.114)
Mm-hmm.
Titus (18:29.747)
by just recognizing that government is a service as any other service. There's nothing special about government. So people think the state is a demigod or something. It's not the case, right?
Mizter Rad (18:40.206)
Okay.
Mizter Rad (18:43.818)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, we're kind of we're kind of used to having the government taking care of a lot of stuff. And some people, you know, don't even don't even question it. And I guess it's an interesting vision. I definitely love the vision and it it brings up a fundamental concern in my head. And when talking about power, let's say in free private cities, you say private companies will basically be running
If not everything, almost everything. Security, roads, infrastructure. What stops them from becoming too powerful? Again, like governments right now. Like maybe charging crazy fees or making unfair rules. Like who watches the watchers, so to say.
Titus (19:29.705)
Yeah.
Titus (19:35.793)
It's mostly competition that's keeping them in place, right?
Mizter Rad (19:40.686)
So the theory of free market, having free market, having people compete against each other and like that driving service.
Titus (19:46.387)
Well, yeah, especially, especially competition with other places, right? I mean, we already have this. Like I live in Monaco, right? Monaco is a principality. It has a parliament, but the parliament has very limited rights. So the prince can make own laws without parliamentary approval. So in principle, he can do everything, right? He can expropriate me. He can say, okay, tomorrow we have a red nose for the rest of the week.
Why he's not doing that? Because he know that in a small place like Monaco, if he would do that, people would just leave. They go to Dubai or other places. And exactly the same is true for... And that's why it's so important that the free private cities is operated by a for-profit entity. Because first and foremost, this entity wants to make profit. And it can only make profit if people going voluntarily into that city, entering voluntarily in that contract.
If I mistreat the people or do not stick to my own contract, then people will leave. I will eventually go bankrupt and I lose my reputation. I cannot start another free city because everybody knows this guy is not keeping to his own promises. And that works, right? mean, look, for example, on a cruise ship or in a holiday resort, rarely ever hear about security brutality. You often hear about police brutality.
portality in countries. You never hear that on the board of a cruise ship. Why? Because these guys have a commercial interest that their customers are coming back. And if, and that is the big difference. If I regard my people as customers and not as milking cows, then I have to treat them well because otherwise they will leave or at least they will give bad spread, bad word about me and no new people will come.
Mizter Rad (21:21.293)
Right.
Titus (21:40.147)
That means I'm making losses and I will go eventually out of business. And that is keeping me in place. And that already works, right? And it's a competitive thing. And that's the reason why I said there will be no world government. There will be more 2000 competing entities. Some fully sovereign, some half sovereign, free private city at the current model is not a full sovereign country. It's a special administrative region in a given country, but it can change over time.
It's also possible that it's not a private company, but it's a cooperative. All the citizens own the city itself, but that doesn't play a role who owns it. It's as unimportant as who owns the cruise ship. The important thing is that I fulfill the contract and the contract says, I have to protect you Mr. Rath in my city and you have to pay something for me. Who owns the operating entity is irrelevant.
It's not relevant, right? And in so far, it's far more important that the contract is kept. The same is the cruise ship. For you as a cruise ship passenger, it's very important that the cruise that you booked in the Caribbean is not going to Africa, right? Or that the captain is not misbehaving and flogging you because you showed up not well dressed enough at Captain's Dinner.
Mizter Rad (22:56.437)
Right.
Titus (23:06.001)
And if this is happening, you don't care who owns the cruise ship. You would say, okay, if they don't stick to the contract, I sue them. I don't care who's the owner. And you never come back. And that's a little bit comparable to my situation. And that will give you as an individual, much, much better standing than you have today. Because today you have to pay taxes, which can be increased overnight.
Mizter Rad (23:13.794)
Yeah, and I never come back, basically.
Yeah, OK. Yeah.
Titus (23:34.833)
I can't change the basic fee that you're paying. They can increase taxes overnight and you have zero say for what this is used. In our contract, it said, okay, this is my services that I provide and that's what you have to pay for that. Let's assume there is, you are robbed, right, in the city and you say, hey, wait a minute, Titus, in my contract it says you're protecting my life, liberty and property. Now I've been robbed, you owe me damages. And indeed I do.
Mizter Rad (24:04.738)
Hmm. Interesting.
Titus (24:05.043)
right? Because I promised security as a service. I didn't keep my promise. I have to pay.
Mizter Rad (24:11.534)
But hold on, who is the other side of that contract? Just to be clear, it's a private company as well. Okay, and that private company?
Titus (24:18.899)
Yes. No, are two parties to the contract. You as a resident and I as an operator. I as an operator guarantee security. How do I do that? Well, I contract other security companies, right? But that's not your problem. You have only one partner. That's me.
Mizter Rad (24:26.4)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Mizter Rad (24:35.594)
I see. Yeah. Yeah, that's my man. Exactly. But who are you? Are you a private company as well? Yeah.
Titus (24:44.391)
I'm a company, I'm a private company. It's the city operating company, right?
Mizter Rad (24:48.384)
Okay, cool. We're going to talk about that and you can give me some examples of how is this happening today already, how private companies are building cities and so on. as I hear you explain all this, how it works and your vision, when people hear about free private cities from you,
Titus (24:57.343)
Yeah.
Mizter Rad (25:09.048)
Some people might think, well, this guy, he's a dreamer, he's an idealist. This is never going to happen. But I know you've been an entrepreneur, you've been in politics, and you've built companies. So you're actually a doer as well. So let me ask you something very simple and straight up. Do you consider yourself an idealist or a realist? Because building new cities with new rules, man, that's a pretty big, great dream, right?
Titus (25:37.407)
It's a great vision, but I consider myself a realist and that's why I came up with this project because I've discovered that what free private cities are is already existing in the real world and it's providing services against payment. Any other utopian idea about freedom or we are all big family and common property, these are
Mizter Rad (25:55.939)
Mm-hmm.
Titus (26:07.539)
I would say unrealistic things because they do not take into account human nature and all that. But in my model, what I have done actually is I took a model that's already existing in the market, which is somebody provides services and the other party pays and transferred that to what I call the market of living together. How we live together, right? So, and I think because this is not...
just a crazy idea, but it's an established mechanism. But only this mechanism hasn't been deployed in that sector that makes it much easier that this will be successful. Because at the end, people will go where they are treated best. And that's why in 15 years, I will win despite maybe 90 % being against it, right? It doesn't play a role. It's just coming. Why is it coming?
Mizter Rad (26:45.805)
Right.
Mizter Rad (26:54.113)
Yeah.
Titus (27:03.103)
Let's make a calculation. Let's assume you are a guy living in Colombia and are qualified, whatever, IT or whatever, consultant. You work 40 years from age 25 to 65 and have an average income of $100,000 per year. Maybe fewer in the beginning and more in the end.
easy calculations. 40 years you make $100 each year. Now you have two options. Let's assume 50,000 you need for your needs and for daily, to make a living. Then you have up 50,000 left. Now, if you can save these 50,000, that makes after and have 10 % interest or return on that. Then at the end of the 40 years, you have 25 million.
Mizter Rad (27:58.478)
Yeah.
Titus (28:03.967)
At the other option, now the option that you're currently using is you have 50, 100,000, 50,000 you need to make a living, 50,000 you give to the state. And after 40 years, you have maybe a pension claim that entitles you to 40,000 a year.
Okay. So that is why my system will prevail because it's offering people so much more and so much better. I mean, if you are a multimillionaire at the age of 65, you can retire and sail around the world. If you are in a state system and 65, you have to really be very, very frugal. You can't keep your standard of living because you're not getting 100 % of what you made. Right.
Mizter Rad (28:52.588)
Yeah, if anything, you have to go down with it. Yeah. I see what you mean. I see what you mean. And that's interesting because it connects to something fundamental. And let me paint a picture here. You said people in I think in another interview, you said people want usually one maximum result for minimum effort. And I agree. Human wants convenience. And I would add actually to that that human wants convenience. Most humans at least
Titus (28:55.647)
Yes.
Titus (29:13.545)
Yes.
Mizter Rad (29:22.446)
85 % of humans, I believe, in the world, those are people that live in non-developed or developing nations. That's like five, almost six billion people, actually. They live on a day-to-day basis. They want convenience, but they also don't plan ahead. And politicians today, they're promising free healthcare today, free education today, not tomorrow, today. And so people vote for that instead of taking responsibility.
of their planning ahead of what you were talking about of their economical situation when they're like retiring and so on. So I want to challenge you. Won't free cities have the same problem? Won't people want these free things today? Even if even in this parallel societies, even in this free cities, like because they seem to want free stuff because it's convenient, it's easy and it's today. And they would vote for that instead of
Titus (29:54.002)
Exactly.
Mizter Rad (30:21.832)
having more freedom, let's say, to decide on their own and not be given anything for free. You know what I mean?
Titus (30:28.733)
Yeah, and that I know exactly what you mean. And I tell you why that is going to happen. That's the reason why you cannot vote in free private cities. There's no reason to vote. You vote with your own decisions, with your own wallet every day, right? For what we spend. Of course, you're right. People want the free lunch. So they go into systems that promise free lunch. What is happening to those systems? Which is the representative democracy that we have today, right?
Because even if you are an idealistic politician, you will find out that eventually the people are voting for the guy who's promising them free everything, free healthcare, free education, free pension. So, and that leads then inevitably to the ruin of the country. And then the next step is, okay, let's make higher taxes.
only works to a certain degree because then the high paying taxpayers will leave the country. Then the next thing is let's take loans, right? And so most countries are highly indebted. And if that is a problem because interest rate payments are too high, they start printing money, which will lead to inflation, even inevitably. And that's what we currently can observe. So what I bring into that equation is a new product and
You're right. A lot of people will not come into free private cities because there's no free lunch. But a lot of people will come because they just, they see that it's not working with the current systems and they want to have more freedom, for example. Some just want to pay lower taxes of all kinds of ideas. And then over time, not all people, many people will discover, okay, I have a higher standard of living in a free city.
than in my state, despite my state is giving me all kinds of freebies. Because here's the thing, I mean, these states will eventually run out of money and then you have nothing. Right? It's not sustainable. Yeah.
Mizter Rad (32:35.406)
Yeah, it's not a sustainable business model, right? If you think about it as a company, the state is a company, let's say, and they're just like charging some taxes to give free lunches, but in reality, they're not producing any service or any product as any other company.
Titus (32:50.047)
Yeah, but even if you look at it also from an individual perspective, if you are a citizen, right, you are happy that you're getting free healthcare, right? But at the end, then there is a point when the state is running out of money and then suddenly there's no more free healthcare. And maybe when you're 65, suddenly the state cannot pay your rent any longer, your pension any longer.
And then, I mean, this is a disaster, right? And that is what people, that's what people will learn. And you can see from example, like in Argentina, that now even the poor and the young who are more normally the typical victims of socialist, traditional parties, they have recognized that this is not going to work. That is not sustainable. And therefore they are voting for somebody like Millay who saying, okay, you have to be responsible for yourself.
Mizter Rad (33:23.19)
Yeah, it's very sad.
Titus (33:48.765)
And the other thing about being responsible for yourself is that the quality of the people that are forced to take care for their own education, healthcare and pension, they are course much more capable after 10, 20 years and they are much more self-confident because they know, I've reached this with my own hands. I know how these things work. the people...
compare this to the people who always say, yeah, I'm in my party tells me I'm entitled to this. I'm entitled to that. And right. these people really
Mizter Rad (34:20.852)
Yeah, yeah, it becomes like a lazy, lazy society as opposed to a society that is more entrepreneurial or yeah.
Titus (34:26.023)
Yes. So, and we are talking about 50 years, right? That's exactly what I say. This is not going to happen immediately, despite there are some initial models. But over time, you will see that the model, the free private CD model or comparable models will be much more successful than the legacy states that we have today for this very reasons.
because they will end in ruin, all of them, because actually they are buying votes. They say, okay, we give you all these goodies and then you vote for me. And the politician, they just say, no, you have to do all kinds of things on your own. We have to save money. Then eventually they are rewarded out of power. And my concern is that the same is happening in Argentina. Once Argentinians are wealthy again,
Mizter Rad (34:53.215)
Mm. Mm.
Mizter Rad (34:58.796)
Mm-hmm.
Titus (35:22.887)
the same mechanism that set in.
Mizter Rad (35:24.344)
Same will happen. Yeah, yeah. OK, so that makes me think about another challenge. And I want to challenge you on something here that's bugging me, that's bothering me. In free private cities, you talk about government as a service. I love the concept, the comparison to the tech world, let's say. It's very easy to understand. Where people can basically vote with their feet, right? They can leave whenever they don't like the service anymore.
Titus (35:32.543)
Mm-hmm.
Titus (35:49.565)
Exactly.
Mizter Rad (35:51.234)
But here's my question. If people are coming and going all the time, how does a city develop its soul, its charisma, its personality? Because you look at places like New York, Barcelona, or Cartagena here in Colombia, what makes them special is partly the people who stayed there for generations. how do you build that when everyone is potentially a digital nomad or a temporary resident or
Titus (36:01.14)
Mm-hmm.
Mizter Rad (36:20.663)
a citizen of the democracy of choice.
Titus (36:25.651)
Yeah, that's a great question. And this is indeed one of the main challenges to create a city that is not just a service entity, but it really has a vibrant culture and is a city on its own. But the answer to that is make it attractive and then the people will stay. And the digital nomads and say hardcore libertarians, these are only the first wave. We have seen this in Honduras. They're the only adopters.
Mizter Rad (36:51.15)
So they're the early adopters,
Titus (36:54.825)
But if we have seen this in Honduras, where first of those projects have come into existence, this is the first. The second wave are middle-class families from the country. And the third wave is everybody else. So in the city, you do not need all your rich people. You need all kinds of people. And then so far, people say, yeah, free privacy is only for the rich. No, this is bullshit because, I mean, look, what you have to pay, you have to pay 1,000 per year. mean, everybody can afford that.
not everybody, but nearly everybody can afford that. And the rich, can already go to 20 countries that have zero income tax, right? So they don't need free private cities. They have a solution. If you have a lot of money, you have a solution. But if you are poor, you don't have. And this is a solution I give to the poor and to the normal people is say, hey, have a look at the contract. Then you come. And if you don't like it, go away. But if you like it, please stay and raise your children here and become
Mizter Rad (37:24.238)
Yeah.
Mizter Rad (37:30.35)
They already have a solution, basically. That's what you say. Right.
Titus (37:53.135)
citizen because a city that is master plan top down is not a real city. A city has to grow organically and that's what we want we're trying to achieve right that people are coming because there are no big zoning laws and big building laws so they people can can experiment they can build things that they think they like and because if a city is built by everyone then it's also city for everyone.
Mizter Rad (38:20.462)
Mm. Mm.
Titus (38:21.311)
The opposite example is Brasilia, right? Which is a super architect, top-down planning, and it's ugly. Nobody likes it. So that can only happen if there's one know-it-all group of guys say, hey, we know how a city should look like. But if the city grows organically by just people coming and having the opportunity to create something, then I think it's...
Mizter Rad (38:38.499)
Right.
Titus (38:47.611)
it will not fluctuate so much. will certainly there is a group of people who is fluctuating much, right? These digital nomads, they like it and after a year they're bored, they go somewhere else. But the majority of people I think just want to have a safe place where they are left alone by coercive, overreaching governments and can just do their business, just live their life. And if they find this, why should they move again?
Mizter Rad (39:09.88)
Right.
Right, right, Titus, I want to move from theory to practice and to what's happening right now. And I know that through your company, T-Polis, you're helping some countries or some private institutions trying to build something like what we were talking, what we are talking about. Who are you working with right now? Which countries are you working with right now to develop free cities or parallel?
societies and at what stage are these projects in?
Titus (39:43.923)
Yeah. Okay. So first and foremost, the only projects so far that are coming close, relatively close to this free private city model are the so-called CDEs in Honduras and maybe the DIFC, the Dubai International Financial Center in Dubai. And they have a similar model in Abu Dhabi and in Astana and Kazakhstan.
Mizter Rad (39:57.995)
Yeah.
Titus (40:11.251)
There you have basically one country, systems model where you have the right to create an own environment, which is different from the rest of the country. In Honduras, these two cities, one is Prospera, the other one is Morazan. They've been established in 2017 and 2018. And especially Prospera has done all kinds of innovative ideas.
3D rights, have indeed an agreement of coexistence, so that was my idea. Okay, 3D right is, for example, if you buy a property, a land, a piece of land, then you have the right to build up to a height of, I don't know, four or five stories, but you can also buy another five stories. And then...
Mizter Rad (40:44.184)
Sorry, what is a 3D, sorry to interrupt, what is a 3D right? What do you mean with that?
Mizter Rad (40:56.142)
Yeah.
Mizter Rad (41:05.282)
Mmm.
Titus (41:07.241)
can buy this from the neighbor. So if he wants to sell that you can secure your free view, right? That is the idea. So you can build a ride to build to a certain height and you can sell this ride. Say, let's assume my neighbor wants to build five stories. I only want to build three stories. So I can sell my ride to build five stories.
Mizter Rad (41:12.642)
Mm-hmm.
Mizter Rad (41:17.646)
Okay
Mizter Rad (41:23.683)
Yeah.
Titus (41:35.561)
to the neighbor so the neighbor can be sure that at least in the highest two stories, he has forever free view. That is just one small example of the many innovation that had happened in the Sede Prospera. I was also involved as an investor and chief legal officer there to make it happen, but I have many, many more innovations. example, if you have a problem, a lot of people were studying medicine.
Mizter Rad (41:44.398)
Yeah.
Titus (42:05.375)
worked as a doctor, highly qualified people that come in another country, they do not recognize that, and then they have to work as a waiter, right? A doctor, highly qualified doctor. Yeah, that happens everywhere. yeah, exactly. So in one of the ideas of Prospera was, okay, if you have a license as a doctor in any OECD country or another list of countries, you can automatically start to work here. You don't need extra permit or something like that. So there's...
Mizter Rad (42:14.442)
Right. that happens everywhere. Yeah. In Germany, it happens a lot. Yeah.
Mizter Rad (42:32.558)
Mm.
Titus (42:35.537)
a large variety of things. the most important thing for me was that this concept of a resident contract was taken over. And for example, to include all the Hondurans that have not much money, what you have to pay per year is $1,300 as an expert, but as a Honduran, you have only to pay $260 per year. So this is not for the rich. Obviously, yeah, that's very affordable. And the Morasan
Mizter Rad (42:58.766)
That's very affordable. Yeah.
Titus (43:04.959)
A city which is on the mainland is 99 % Honduran worker working class, right? Because for them it's mostly the security, the reason to go there, because the security is included in their rent. And the rent is only $150 per month for a 60 square meter apartment with air condition. That's much better than they have on the outside. And they can, for example, I've seen a picture of a couple with their dog sitting under a streetlight at night.
And people told me that would be impossible outside of the zone. That scene. said, why that? You, you coming from South America, you knew, you know that immediately you, you, you got the right answer. It's far too dangerous to go out at night. So, but in the zone you can. Right. So this is easy and easy to reach target and they have already paid for security within their rent. And that is how, how these things can work.
Mizter Rad (43:40.524)
Yeah, it's not secure. It's not safe.
Mizter Rad (43:46.791)
Absolutely, Yeah.
Mizter Rad (44:00.718)
Mm.
Titus (44:04.127)
also for not only for the rich, for everyone, even for the lower income groups.
Mizter Rad (44:09.26)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, let me make a parenthesis here because I know a lot of Spanish speakers also listen to the Mr. Ratchel and I just want to clarify what CEDES, when you talk about CEDES, what they mean and they stand for in Spanish, zona de empleo y desarrollo económico, which translates to zones for economic and employment development in English. And these are basically jurisdictions or legal
Titus (44:18.975)
Mm-hmm.
Mizter Rad (44:38.858)
entities. don't know how you as a lawyer defined, but they were legalized, let's say, like you said in 2017, maybe, and given a special, let's say, status, and they made their own rules. And that's what we're talking about, basically. And that happened in a small island, Roatan, in the Pacific Ocean, Pacific coast in Honduras, I believe. It's on the other side, Caribbean. Okay, even better.
Titus (45:02.003)
No, it's on the other side. It's in the Caribbean side. It's, yeah.
Mizter Rad (45:08.332)
But now, and this is where it gets interesting, and I want to hear your opinion. The Supreme Court has basically killed it recently, saying it's unconstitutional and they're facing an 11 billion legal battle, 11 billion dollars. And I remember now you used an interesting example of Cologne in the 1100s and how it took Cologne, the city of Cologne in Germany, 200 years to become free. But once that happened,
other cities followed faster. And I want to challenge you on something here. Looking at what happened with Prospera with the new government led by Xiong Maracastro, a little bit leftist or very leftist, depends on the eyes of the viewer. How do you or how do we know this is not just going to keep happening to other Prosperas that pop up throughout the world? Like, no matter how good your legal framework is,
Titus (45:41.213)
Exactly.
Mizter Rad (46:06.922)
It seems like established powers and governments and maybe opposition governments, courts, whatever, they can just shut down these free experiments, freedom experiments down whenever they want. Like one new president like Xiomara and boom, your sovereignty is gone, unfortunately. How do you solve that problem? How many successful cities like Prospera in its time do we need before this spell breaks and governments start saying, okay, you know what?
maybe this is actually good for us.
Titus (46:40.273)
I think this is already happening because what we see in Honduras was unfortunate that the socialist government was coming into power and they are opposed to those Sadis that made it part of their election campaign because the Sadis had no lobby group, right? Nobody was really interested of the strong elites in Honduras to make this experiment or to keep that experiment. But on the other hand, I would say
If those cities were a bit far more advanced, let's say four or five years more advanced and they had 10,000 of jobs there, that means with the families, maybe 30,000 voters, that would have been a different story. And I can make you an example like the makelas in Honduras that were coming into existence, I think in the 80s, that was a special economic zone for, especially for textile, that means no import-export tariffs.
And there were also under heavy critique by the left back then, but after the first 200,000 jobs were created there, nobody would ever touch them again. And they still exist. And that is, I think, a precedent. The number of special economic zones worldwide is on the rise. And it's innovative governments that they will...
Mizter Rad (47:52.302)
And they still exist?
Titus (48:07.593)
they will see that advantage because a lot of job is created and investment that otherwise would not come to that country, especially country like Honduras has difficulty attracting that. Well, now what they have done is of course, mean, these, can as a politician and a government, you can always use force, right? You send the army, you put your people in Supreme Court, it's all illegal.
Mizter Rad (48:17.966)
All right.
Titus (48:36.467)
But the fact is that the Hondurans created those zones. They were Hondurans that let's create Hong Kongs in Honduras and become as successful as Hong Kong. And they knew their people. They say, okay, probably next government doesn't like it. So what we put in place is a guarantee that even if the next government is unwinding this law, then the existing cities will have a guarantee up to 50 years if there's an international treaty. And then they did an international treaty with
Kuhwied, Honduras Kuhwied. It says 50 years guaranteed. Now, if you now come and they change the constitution to make it possible. Now, if you come and say that's invalid from the past, from 2013, 2017, that is obviously legally very, very doubtful. And that is why Honduras is now subject to this $11 billion claim. Right?
Mizter Rad (49:25.934)
Mmm.
Mizter Rad (49:32.141)
Mmm.
Titus (49:32.659)
That's a high risk for any government to do that. And it's the only way we can defend ourselves is by investor protection agreements and saying, if you just come and take us over again against the contract, against the law, then we sue you in front of international arbitration. And 90 % of governments will avoid that. And I think even the cities in Honduras, it's not over. Just wait for the next election. And any government would want to avoid an 11
Mizter Rad (49:58.797)
Okay.
Titus (50:02.537)
billion dollar claim, or maybe if it's five at the end, that even this is far too much for a country like Honduras. they will come back to the negotiation table. why I'm, not this government, the next one.
Mizter Rad (50:09.461)
Still a lot, yeah.
Mizter Rad (50:13.634)
That's what you believe. Do you think they'll pull back?
The next one, Tell me something, why Kuwait? Why was the agreement with Kuwait? That sounds interesting.
Titus (50:25.969)
I think because the then government that established those laws, they had good relationships with Kuwait and Kuwait had an interest in a certain project, I think on the Pacific side, which did not materialize. I don't know, that was before my time. But the Honduran jurists, did well. They exactly knew what could be the problems and they did well. And again, it's not people from the outside that traded that. It was coming from the inside.
Mizter Rad (50:37.55)
Mizter Rad (50:43.022)
Okay.
Mizter Rad (50:55.168)
Locals. Yeah.
Titus (50:55.295)
Now to your question, I cannot disclose the countries with which we are in discussions before it's all signed. But I can tell you that in Central America and South America, some in Africa and some even in Southeast Asia, these are the regions where probably we will see some of those cities pop up in the next 24 months.
Mizter Rad (51:18.83)
Interesting that they're not VIP, I call them VIP countries, rich economies.
Titus (51:27.251)
Well, the reason, yes, and reason for that is if you're already rich, you don't have to do something. If the others they have, right, they are looking for innovative new solutions. They want to attract capital and they are open to new ideas. Most countries are not open to new ideas, but some are. And it's not only Tipple is my company, there are other companies around. And now there is such a momentum, so many people behind the scenes.
Mizter Rad (51:32.917)
Right.
Titus (51:55.359)
are trying to make this happen, free private CDs or sharder CDs or comparable ideas, that it's just a question of time now when the next project will materialize, no matter if the CDs come back or not. It's going to happen.
Mizter Rad (52:11.328)
Right, right, right, right, right. talking about richer countries reminds me of something happening right now that I've seen in the news and actually worries me as a German resident. I don't have a passport, but I'm a resident. And I hate to take you kind of off track here, but this connects well with something that, like I said, is happening right now. We're seeing countries like Norway, the Netherlands. I think even the UK is thinking about putting heavy exit
taxes on people who want to leave. Like they're building walls around their tax residents. And that bugs me. That bothers me a lot. But most people actually I would say and I would claim that most people don't even understand their current tax situation, right? They need experts to just file their tax. It's too complicated. They need experts to file their taxes. And now there's this country saying, you cannot exit because we charge you on top of that. We charge you
Titus (52:42.505)
Yeah. Yes.
Titus (52:59.665)
It's too complicated.
Mizter Rad (53:09.15)
to exit kind of. How are we supposed to figure out how to legally move between tax regimes as a regular Joe and Jane trying to figure out where to live, what jurisdiction is better for me? Isn't this getting way too complex? in your concept of free cities, wouldn't we need to make this whole thing simpler and maybe more educational in a way?
Titus (53:22.975)
Yeah, I...
Titus (53:35.401)
Well, this is the USP of the free private cities. There is no complicated tax situation. You have to pay a basic fee per year. That's it. Right. There's zero tax beyond that. Yes, it's a subscription fee for the government services and this fee is fixed and there is no additional tax. Right. So this is much, much easier. Yeah, you can leave any time without any disadvantages. Right. Because here's the thing.
Mizter Rad (53:45.206)
That's it. Like paying a Spotify subscription fee or something like
Mizter Rad (53:57.654)
And you can cancel anytime also.
Titus (54:04.893)
And what you mentioned is showing this is a big battle going on. I tell you, if I have a good product, I don't need to force people to buy it. People will voluntarily buy it. But if you have to take people, build a wall, I mean, you're in Berlin from time to time. Berlin was divided by a wall and this wall was to prevent people from East Germany to leave the country. Because they were so unattractive compared to the West that they had to build a wall.
The walls of today are exit tax, it's taxation of nationality and all those things. This will not stop the downfall of the current welfare, warfare systems. And it's not going to stop because people will find ways to go out. And eventually it will force the Western countries to become more competitive again against innovative
countries against three city jurisdictions. And that is a good thing because it means, as in the markets, the price will go down, quality will go up. At the moment, it's just the opposite in the legacy states. And in so far, it's a battle at the moment. But if they try with totalitarian measures like building walls, making incredibly high exit taxes,
This is not going to work in the long run. Like the GDR collapsed, people were just saying, we don't care. And then they escaped through Hungary, right?
Mizter Rad (55:39.854)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, people always find a way. That's definitely true. That's definitely true. Look, after we've after everything we've discussed, I want to just ask you my last and most classic question in the Mr. Red Show. I want you to imagine we're in 2074 again, 50 years from now. Do you see free private cities winning against traditional governments? And I think you answered this slightly before already. Or do you think we'll have a mix of both?
And I want you to paint me a picture of that future.
Titus (56:14.463)
In the year 2074, we will have a mix of all kinds of different systems. There will be states which function as more or less as states of today, but there will be many free private cities and autonomous jurisdiction where government is regarded as a service and people are regarded as customers, sovereign individuals. And there will be...
the network of free cities, which will form a new Hanseatic League, which will then enable people who are allowed as a citizen or existing residents in one of those cities to easily move to the others without a big application procedure. And they are also protected worldwide, right? You have a kind of an insurance that what a state of today is providing like
If you have a problem in a foreign country, you're arrested, you get consular help, or maybe even descend the military or whatever. In the future, that will be on an insurance basis. will be people consider themselves as sovereign individuals. There will be no part of any state, not any free privacy. There will be considered themselves sovereign individuals. There will be mechanisms to protect them worldwide.
Most of them will reside in a free private city based on a contract that guarantees them their freedoms and their rights. And this leads to a competition amongst the systems which may even be so that some are more religious oriented, some are more ethnical oriented. And you might think that I don't think this is a system that will prevail and this is also not good.
A competition is also what's keeping power in line, right? Only competitions, the only means of empowerment, of disempowerment that we have discovered as human beings. So maybe if I'm not satisfied with my free private cities, I can easily switch to another free private city or to a legacy state. That forces every system in the year 2074 to be attractive. And this is a good message to us because it means
Titus (58:35.881)
They regard us as customers that have to be treated well and not as subjects that can be subjugated under all kinds of laws and taxes. So the future will be bright.
Mizter Rad (58:44.962)
Hmm. Interesting into I like your positivism. Absolutely. And I like the example that you gave me before we started recording that is happening in Panama. Tell me more about that. You were recently there. What did you see?
Titus (59:02.179)
These are the seasteading guys. Well, there's a group of people who said, who thought, how can we try out new things without having to overthrow the government or winning an election or making a secession? They said, let's go out on the sea where there's no territorial state and in international waters. And the problem was waves. And how can you make this happening that is livable?
Mizter Rad (59:21.505)
International waters, yeah.
Titus (59:31.251)
And now they have developed the technology, which is called the C-POTS, which are standing on a very long spa, which goes 29 meters below the sea level and like an oil rig, right? And it's in a region, Panama is close to the region where there are not more waves than five meters. There's a corridor around that crater, which is very calm waters. And that is
possible to do the sea studying concepts there. And I have visited one of the pioneers, it's a company called Ocean Builders in Panama on the Caribbean side. And they have developed the first three sea pods. And one of them has an underwater room at a depth of 11 meter. there's somebody, the engineer who has constructed that, currently trying to prove that this is all safe. And he wants to make the world record
in staying underwater more than 120 days. I visited him on day 54 and we had a lunch together, right? So they were bringing us from the surface. Inside, inside, the water, under the water. It was my first underwater lunch ever. It's safe, it's secure, it's luxurious. And I mean, it's not for everyone.
Mizter Rad (01:00:39.064)
Wow.
Mizter Rad (01:00:43.35)
Inside of the pot under the water? wow, interesting. Interesting.
Mizter Rad (01:00:52.206)
Wow.
Titus (01:01:00.177)
living on the water, the sea, but these people, really do that. And there's, I mean, it has to be a small group of pioneers who are starting with these new things. I mean, it's much, it's still much cheaper to settle on the sea than to go to Mars, right? So this is the next frontier.
Mizter Rad (01:01:02.37)
Right. OK.
Mizter Rad (01:01:10.605)
Right.
Mizter Rad (01:01:20.16)
Right, yeah, absolutely. I agree. I agree. I agree. I agree. That's the next frontier. Okay, absolutely. Imagine a world where actually we put sea pods everywhere that are environmentally friendly, of course, but where people can actually just move around and experiment with different kinds of governments or different kinds of lives and be more free. Well, Tito's, it's been an honor having you on the Mr. Rat Show. I really admire your courage to...
champion and drive forward this individual sovereignty at a time where governments seem to be grabbing more and more control. And you know, it's funny, government officials are supposed to be our employees. We're supposed to be the boss kind of, but somehow we ended up being the sheep and the real bosses. Well, who knows who they are. We don't even know. They're so high up. We can't even see them anymore.
Titus (01:02:12.145)
Indeed.
Mizter Rad (01:02:17.952)
And so, yeah, thank you so much for your work.
Titus (01:02:20.733)
My pleasure and thank you for inviting me.
Mizter Rad (01:02:24.888)
Well, thank you so much, everyone that tuned in. Until next time, beautiful humans, stay curious, question everything, and ask yourself if you could design your ideal society from scratch, what would it look like? Maybe it's time to start building it. Hasta la vista. I'm going to stop recording now.