28. Tripping into the Future: How Psychedelics Are Shaping Us. feat. Anne Philippi
Available now
-
Available now -
Episode TranscripT
This transcript of the podcast was auto-generated and may include typos.
[00:00:00] Anne Philippi: in 50 years we will be reintroduced to using psychoactive substances in our daily lives, be it with microdosing to just focus better. I think people will be able to look into this to enhance their lives. Their relationships. Their creativity. Once the stigma has gone and you have developed a practice around it, there's a big chance that it will be part of our lives.
[00:00:45] Mizter Rad: Hello, beautiful humans. Today I'm here with Anne Filippi. She's the founder of The New Health Club, and we're going to talk about psychedelics. Super exciting project. Anne, let's start by telling my audience.
Why do you think psychedelics are an important part or tool of our future as humans?
[00:01:05] Anne Philippi: that's a really big question. First of all, thank you for, for having me on the show. The short answer to this is that I think we as a world and society are no longer able to, let's say, succeed with our own old tools and, ways of working around mental health and in general health topics. So we need new tools.
We need new ways to look into our brains. To work around our depression. To work around our trauma. And when I say new tools, meaning psychedelics, it's almost funny because of course they're not new. They've been often thousands of years old. Used in plants or by plant, with plant medicine. And let's say what we think of psychedelics today as LSD, Magic Mushrooms, 5-MeO-DMT or Ayahuasca.
Ayahuasca is basically thousands of years old. So, these, let's say, new substances on MDMA, of course, they were actually once set up to help us to treat, let's say, depression and, anxiety. But then, because of political strategies, mainly by America, by Richard Nixon, to criminalize them and use them to create More racism in the United States while, for example, connecting cannabis or drugs to the black community.
So, Nixon used this actually as a tool. So, and then criminalized a lot of these psychedelics. And we all heard about the war on drugs. And since then, since the 70s, nobody could ever research them anymore. Although there was a huge
[00:02:46] Mizter Rad: They were, they were all, they were all put in the same drawer kind of as drugs instead of medicine.
[00:02:53] Anne Philippi: Yeah, exactly. And a lot of these substances were medicine, like we said, thousands of years old. And it is really more like a sometimes a question of colonialism and racism than just, you know, people being an addict or
[00:03:08] Mizter Rad: Right.
[00:03:08] Anne Philippi: But I mean, this whole story around drugs that we all grew up with in the last 30, 40 years is now completely transforming because I think we need new tools like psychedelics to look into new forms of trauma and depression that we're experiencing right now with, for example, you know, what happened in the last couple of months in the world is a really big example, I
[00:03:31] Mizter Rad: Right. And so, you know, a regular person would tell me, okay, I'm not, fortunately, I'm not in a war zone. Fortunately, my life is pretty normal. I don't have any trauma. I don't have any problem. Would you say they might be wrong in a
[00:03:47] Anne Philippi: hmm.
[00:03:47] Mizter Rad: that we all have Even generational traumas, and we don't even notice it.
We're not paying attention enough,
[00:03:56] Anne Philippi: Yeah, I think there's a whole new redefinition also around what trauma actually is and like you already mentioned it, like how it is connected to three or four generations before us that people that we never um, maybe personally met but that they have experienced trauma that is actually in an epigenetic way delivered to us basically. But this is only one thing I think like just the idea around How a trauma could look like. How it's presenting itself into our lives, into our daily lives, into our relationships. That is just undergoing probably one of the biggest transformations in the last, I don't know, probably 50, 100 years. There were always people researching this. And one psychiatrist, especially in his book, The Body Keeps the Score. He's called Bessel van der Kolk , like a, in the meantime, 80 year old Dutch psychiatrist living in America. And I think he brought out this book a while ago, but he was one of the first people, let's say, redefining how trauma shows itself in our bodies or brains after having experienced something like that, but never really looked into how it could actually change Your life in a way that you wouldn't even realize that the trauma was actually the
[00:05:20] Mizter Rad: Mm hmm,
[00:05:20] Anne Philippi: for these, let's say, mental health problems. But also like classic health problems like and then a good example for this is, something like fibromyalgia, which a lot of people have, and they just, their bodies are in pain.
And then the doctors would say like, Well, I can't find anything. So it must be your imagination that you're in pain. Which is of course kind of crazy making because those people hardly ever, would lie to the doctor. They just don't know where the pain comes from. And it's a very interesting example, that shows that there might be some trauma pain in those people's bodies and which can be found in a classic diagnose in a hospital or with a classic doctor.
So a lot of people looking into psychedelics, who are actually suffering from fibromyalgia sometimes report that in their trip they've seen, for example, somebody Or a person in their in their family where the pain actually came from but it wasn't their own pain. Yeah, I mean I had actually two people telling me this. So a woman she she always was battling with fibromyalgia and then She went on to a, uh, to a magic mushroom trip and she saw in the experience that, yeah, like I said, like her people in her family had, were kind of trying to deal with this pain that wasn't hers.
So in the trip she could let it, the pain go and, had a much better, quality of life. She, she could let go of her five, like the, you know, the pain system that her body was kind of storing. and keeping alive. And, this is actually a really good example of how psychedelics actually help to look into the many, many variations, how trauma is manifesting in our bodies.
So not only in our relationships or like, you know, also in our physical
[00:07:12] Mizter Rad: and it's not only a problem of Let's say it's a psychedelic. So it's not only the tool to help with depression or PTSD, but also With trauma that like you said, reflects in the body with body pain, for example. And so if you think psychedelics is a tool to help us reset your brain or trauma, do you think it's important to have someone next to you when you are in, let's say going on a trip? Because I know a lot of people take this, maybe as almost as a party drug or just to have fun. But these are tools that are super powerful. And as you said, they've been used by our ancestors for many, many years.
So what is your opinion on this? How do you, how do you see this?
[00:08:03] Anne Philippi: Well, I think, I mean, like you say, there are situations and moments where it's absolutely great to have, you know, kind of a Let's call it recreational experience with psychedelics. Once you know how to deal with it, and if you have, if you're informed and you have a little bit of a practice, I mean, it's a wonderful thing.
But I think if you really would like to look into an underlying issue or a depression even, or like a therapeutical thing, then, and this is also my own experience, it is absolutely powerful and necessary I think to have a guide on your side. And in terms of a magic truffle trip in, for example, Netherlands or magic mushroom trip, it's mostly 11 person guiding you. Also because you're flat on your back. And I mean, you basically you're not moving and but your body might have some reactions like you might cry. Or you just Have a moment where you want to grab somebody's hand and just hold it, even if you don't talk so much because on a high dose of mushrooms, you will not talk so much anymore.
Or for example, like we have in the MAPS protocol. MAPS is a very important organization, trying to legalize MDMA assisted psychotherapy and it's called Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies, with Rick Doblin as a founder. So, but if you have, let's say, an MDMA guided experience, then for example, there's a protocol from, I think, Annie and Michael Mithoffer, who created this, that you have two people next to you that basically kind of your parents, like a man and a woman guiding you through the experience. And in MDM in an MDMA therapy, for example, you rather talk to the therapist or they ask you questions. And because they ask you questions, you're able to go much deeper into a possible trauma that you're trying to solve fear or the reason for your depression. And I think if, if, if it's really something or it's a moment where you really would like to find out what is going on with you? Even if you just have a question, why am I not doing this? What is keeping me away? It doesn't always have to be like a very severe traumatic thing. But it will be much harder to find out by yourself, and also another thing is that your nervous system will be much quieter and you will be able to access way more information because your body and your nervous system Have the information.
I'm safe. I
[00:10:35] Mizter Rad: Yeah.
[00:10:36] Anne Philippi: I feel safe You can totally open up and if I cry somebody will be there for me. Or if I scream also somebody will there be there for me. So it's it's a very important thing. I think.
[00:10:48] Mizter Rad: Right. When you talk about trauma and therapy what kind of people look for therapy? Because again someone like the regular Joe and Jane listening to this episode would think, okay, I don't need therapy. I'm, I'm, I'm fine.
[00:11:01] Anne Philippi: Yeah,
[00:11:02] Mizter Rad: So I'm great. I'm doing good.
[00:11:04] Anne Philippi: good for you
[00:11:05] Mizter Rad: But in your experience what kind of people right now are looking for therapy?
And do you think this is going to open up a bit more? to those regular Joes and Janes that are listening.
[00:11:15] Anne Philippi: Yeah, I mean, talking about the regular Joe and Janes, I mean, we, we are experiencing two big wars right now in, in Europe. And so it's not only like the Ukraine and Israel and Palestine. So, I mean, and it's not, there are like 20 soldiers going to fight and then they come back and they might need an MDMA therapy.
It's two, three proper countries where the civilians and normal people living there will have an absolute traumatic experience with these things that are just happening, which, are kind of, you know, coming back into their lives as, you know, like the conflict between Israel and Palestine it's very old. It's like also. Ukraine has always been a difficult situation, in a difficult situation with Russia. Meaning that more and more civilians, and let's say normal people will have to be able to work through what they are just experiencing. And I don't think even if we hear, what's happening there, even not living there, it's almost impossible, I think, and I'm, I think I'm backed by science there a little bit, that our brains will not be able to deal with this anymore in the way they used, I mean, you would, they used to, it's not even the right thing to say, they're not able to deal with this, what we see, what people in these countries are experiencing. This is one thing that is so severe.
And then also, we are exposed to a new amount of social media that is showing us what is happening in these countries. And many people get, maybe even without knowing it, get re traumatized just looking at this kind of content. And, uh, their brain keeps telling him, I look at it, look at it. This is kind of, you know, something in you that is responding to this, like you should look at it.
And this is sometimes almost like a trauma response from the brain to look at pictures or very cruel, um, I don't know, It is a
[00:13:12] Mizter Rad: very human thing to at cruel stuff...
[00:13:14] Anne Philippi: It is human... Yeah, absolutely. It is. But at the same time, especially in these two cases, it's almost like a brain that is already traumatized will look for re traumatizing experiences in a very strange way because that's what it knows, kind of.
And this is, I think, one of the really crucial elements of the psychedelic therapy that we would think, Oh, let's Your brain would actually tell you, don't look this way. It's very cruel. It's very, you know, upsetting, but then your brain as a traumatized brain will exactly pick these kind of scenarios because it knows it. And it's a very good, very interesting example, how how this goes with veterans. So if they are, let's say, going to the Iraq war, and in America, a lot of veterans are starting to look into psychedelic therapy because of that reason. So they would come home from Iraq, let's say, after a couple of years. And then you would think, oh, now they're home. That's so great.
Now they're safe. Because they're not in a war anymore. But this is when their problems really start to become visible, or like apparent in their families. Because the worst for them is to go home and because the brain is like, but wait, I don't understand what, what, what's going on here. Where, where's the next, traumatic experience?
Because this is what I know. So a lot of them actually can't wait. And it's a very interesting system, how our brain works. They can't wait to go back.
[00:14:44] Mizter Rad: Hmm.
[00:14:44] Anne Philippi: Although you would think, well, if they go back. there's a big chance they might die but this is what the brain eventually saves. And says like well oh great yeah that's what I know now I feel
[00:14:56] Mizter Rad: Hmm. It's funny because I think that all these experiences, maybe we, like you said, we have them in, in, in really hidden parts of our brains from maybe generations ago. And we don't realize they're there. And when we see a photo of war in Gaza. Or in Ukraine, that kind of like comes up again and triggers it and maybe we get hooked and they we want to see more and we get angry and we
[00:15:25] Anne Philippi: hmm mm hmm
[00:15:26] Mizter Rad: these sensations and feelings that we get just from experiencing this on the mobile not even on site.
So I think that's that's crazy. And it comes down to maybe making us less sensitive to it in a way.
[00:15:41] Anne Philippi: Absolutely and it's interesting that you say this Because I actually read, um, one of the recent studies about MDMA therapy is, from Johns Hopkins in Maryland that it, in therapy, your brain is re sensitized, which means that if you had experienced trauma, let's say as a child, your brain desensitizes, like it becomes less sensitive to things that are horrible happening around you. But in this MDMA therapy it's almost like your brain is able to go back to a state, very simply said what I'm saying now, to a state where it's not been traumatized. And how would you feel about certain things then? How would you not like to be treated by certain people?
You know, with a normally sensitized brain and not desensitized brain. How would you, where would you live? How would you treat yourself? In a re sensitized way. And that's really fascinating because, of course, let's say this, this re sensitization, we immediately have the idea of, oh, so now I'm going to be super sensitive to everything, that's also really annoying, you know, like how can I get through life. But this is not what this is. The resensitization only means you will be able To look into reactions that a person would have without a trauma. So, the main thing is, let's say the goal, the main goal, which is a long journey sometimes, is the question to yourself: what person would I be without a trauma?
[00:17:14] Mizter Rad: Interesting question.
[00:17:15] Anne Philippi: And a lot of, yeah, and a lot of people, I mean including myself, starting to go on their personal psychedelic journey, at one point after a couple of trips, start to realize, wow, this is that person. And if I wouldn't have experienced the trauma, I would be the other person or I would be a different
[00:17:34] Mizter Rad: Absolutely.
[00:17:35] Anne Philippi: And it's basically your quest that you're going on is to find a person without a trauma in you.
[00:17:41] Mizter Rad: That's very, very interesting. And it's interesting that, that you talk about people getting desensitized because when they go through so harsh experiences, and they may be grow in a society that is full of violence. For example, I could tell you from my personal experience, I grew up in Colombia in 90s, and
[00:18:01] Anne Philippi: Oh, wow.
[00:18:01] Mizter Rad: full of violence. The war on drugs, as we were talking about before. And people grew like that. And there was war. There were bombs banging here and there. People getting kidnapped.
You would turn on the TV and they would like kids on the ground full of blood. It was horrible. And I think, I believe it's my belief that people in Colombia in the eighties and the nineties grew without, at some point we were not questioning it anymore and we were just normalizing it. And I definitely believe that that created traumas on people's minds that, again most of us don't even know about. Because we think we live in a normal, well, you know, we're living a normal life. And this is me and, this is my personality and it's, it, I didn't get affected by the war because whatever I was safe. But in reality it did affect me in many ways if I really started learning about myself and I think it's super interesting what you said that, going into a psychedelics journey is this quest of trying to find out who would I be without a trauma. In my case, without the trauma of growing in such society.
So I think this is powerful, interesting,
[00:19:15] Anne Philippi: Yeah. And I think, and I think what you said with Columbia, I mean, of course you, you kind of, I mean, imagine immediately how that affected you as a person. As a child even already. And another thing is that, and it's also a good example for this, that in the Netherlands and a lot of these retreats let's say a lot of German people who go there from Germany to experience a trip and to work on themselves. A lot of people have experiences in the trip that whether their Nazi past or even the past of Germany as a former, you know, Nazi country is coming to them in the trip. And it's not even necessarily that their family was, you know, kind of in the C level, yeah, in the C-level level of the Nazi League or anything.
So it just sometimes it's enough that they're, I mean, obviously their family, their grandparents, their great grandparents had lived in a country that was, under a So, and what that led to, as, as we all know, is like probably one of the cruelest outcomes in the world. And a lot of people have encounters, let's say, in German people, in, in their trips, either with, you know, like kind of the sea, the kind of, let's say, the sea concentration camps.
They actually see what it meant for their country that this, you know, this happened there. And a lot of people actually also for the first time have the experience that they feel what kind of sadness and what kind of heaviness Germany still has to deal with because of this. And, how are we not trying to look into this in a very emotional way.
But once you encounter this in a trip, you, you generally, I think, have the ability to really feel what this has done to a country or to your country, if you're a German. So
[00:21:16] Mizter Rad: I don't know if you've heard about the research that Dr. Leo Rossman from Imperial College is doing.
[00:21:23] Anne Philippi: I'm going to be on a panel with him
[00:21:25] Mizter Rad: Oh really? That's very interesting. So I think, so what I
[00:21:30] Anne Philippi: He's a good
[00:21:30] Mizter Rad: What I read was that the guy started interviewing Israeli and Palestinians who had participated in this ayahuasca retreat. And And and the findings were just incredible like people build connections that would never happen if they were not on a trip like that. They were more compassionate with each other. More loving.
It's just like all these dramas and all this, societally built, barriers. They just got eliminated right away.
[00:22:01] Anne Philippi: Yeah, and I think that the. really powerful thing about psychedelics is, and even if you do your first trip and it's, it's not even, you don't even go that deep. Or you just, you know, you start and you have a lower dose and, let's say 25 gram of truffles. That's mostly like the dose that people get on a Dutch retreat at the first time. I think the most, incredible thing is that you realize there's a whole different reality That we also live in that is connected to you to your past. That is connected to a very different person in you. And I mean, this sounds kind of like a thing that I'm saying now. But it is actually a very, very profound experience for a lot of people to realize that there's something in them that is a spiritual person.
And it doesn't mean a religious person necessarily. Although interesting enough. Sometimes you get a lot of insight, you know, what you think your religion and what it did to you. And, sometimes it's kind of a reconnection with a certain religion you had. If that's a religion that is interesting and good for you.
Like, Madison Margolin, she just wrote this book, Exile and Ecstasy, about the Jewish psychedelic underground. And, actually very, highly recommended. And, there are actually a lot of new and young, psychedelic rabbis right now, who are actually working, with cannabis, like Zak Kamenetz from Berkeley, for example.
So, what I'm saying is that the main thing getting into this experience is to find your own personal spiritual path again. And how this looks like is super different, but you will reconnect with the, I would say with the force in you that you might have never met or would not like to acknowledge in you
[00:23:55] Mizter Rad: Hmm. That's super interesting. Tell me more about your experience. Why did you get into, into this topic?
[00:24:01] Anne Philippi: Yeah. I mean, I'm like so many other people. I had, I think 15 years of talk therapy and all together and After these 15, 16 years, longer, I think 20 years, I realized nothing is really changing for me. I still cannot seem to find answers to really big questions. Let's put it that
[00:24:23] Mizter Rad: Right.
[00:24:24] Anne Philippi: And then, again, like, like so many other people, in 2018, somebody gave me the book by Michael Pollan, How to Change Your Mind, and I really started to read up about his LSD trip and after, which is the first chapter, I think.
And after this, I was like, okay, that's what I want to do. I didn't even finish it first. And because of what I liked about him explaining how his trip was is because, you know, he's an established writer. He's like, you know, he's not like a woo woo person doing drugs. So he had a very good way of explaining how this kind of opened him a new, again, a new idea about himself. Saying this is not a woo woo thing. Of course it is. But I mean, there's also a good woo woo now these days So I just want to give credit to that too. So yeah, and then I actually I researched and I found a psychiatrist who got who guided me to the LSD trip And then I went on my first psychedelic trip ever.
So and then I've never done
[00:25:25] Mizter Rad: When was this again?
[00:25:26] Anne Philippi: no experience This was 2019
[00:25:28] Mizter Rad: Okay.
[00:25:30] Anne Philippi: And I had a very good experience with LSD. It was insightful for me. It was a very, it was a really good feeling I had in my body. And it was the first step for me to really also, like what we talked about earlier, to start this reconnection to myself.
It was the first step in a, in a, in this, on this journey. And it wasn't like I would go, come out of the trip and say like, oh, everything in my life now has to change. Although I already knew that, some things were about to change. And I wouldn't know how this would look like, but I knew it would start. And, then in 2020, luckily, shortly before the lockdown, I've been at Synthesis in the Netherlands to do a high dose of psilocybin.
[00:26:17] Mizter Rad: Synthesis is what, a retreat?
[00:26:19] Anne Philippi: It was, it was a retreat in the Netherlands. It doesn't exist anymore. I think in, in, in Oregon, they're opening a new department now. I'm just, I have to have to look into it.
So, but basically it was a very established, well run, magic truffle retreat. And after this experience, I suddenly like a couple of weeks later, like, I think the lockdown already had started. I started to realize that there was something in my childhood that was very significant. Which I had forgotten about. maybe 30 years or something. And, it came to me in the time after the trip and these six weeks after where your brain is still experiencing like a so called neuroplasticity, which means there are new connections made in your brain. You remember suddenly certain things. You have recollection of things that you've forgotten for a very long time, for a very good reason.
So I got in touch with this trauma that, that I had experienced and slowly but surely I realized how this experience with me being seven years old, was a very abusive, experience I had. And that this abusive experience had really shaped my life
[00:27:38] Mizter Rad: Right. Your personality, the way you think, the way you see the world.
[00:27:41] Anne Philippi: Yeah, everything my relationships. I didn't really have children.
I was not married. So and of course at one point I asked myself this like why? Because I never were like, Oh, I hate marriage. I hate children. But I also didn't do it really. So, and um, as one knows in your twenties and thirties, you're like, yeah, whatever. You just, you know, you just go living and go partying and have a great job and you fly around the world, which I did.
[00:28:09] Mizter Rad: right,
[00:28:10] Anne Philippi: But then turning 40, I was like, it is kind of, I cannot answer the question anymore. And then this brought me. This just remembering this incident brought me on a completely different journey suddenly. And I realized that Again, like my whole life was based on like we said earlier on the traumatized brain. Or on a traumatized nervous system, meaning that I couldn't be close to people for a long time, I just felt, overwhelmed.
Like, even with friends, like, I remember, like, as a teenager, my friends would tell me, Oh, you can never, you never hug me, what is, what's wrong with you, kind of. And it was true. I didn't. I was very distanced. Like cold, some people would say. But I mean, I had no recollection or no idea why it would be that way.
So I kept going with my journeys. And did a couple of mushroom trips more. And recently I just did the first, MDMA assisted therapy to really kind of, you know, and that's a very good example of what we talked about earlier, to really get into this very specific feeling of disconnection. And when it actually started. And how my brain, like we said, desensitized...
[00:29:26] Mizter Rad: do you have, do you have a fear? Sorry, sorry to interrupt on that specific, point. Do you fear that, you create a dependence on it? Because some substances are quite addictive. So, do you
[00:29:39] Anne Philippi: Yeah. I mean the, the,
[00:29:40] Mizter Rad: you, you start creating a dependence on them?
[00:29:44] Anne Philippi: no, I mean, first of all, like the classic psychedelics like LSD and mushrooms. So they are, they would not make you an addict because in the case of mushrooms, the more mushrooms you take the less they work. So it's not like an opioid thing, like heroin or let's say cocaine. And having said that, I mean, just a quick excurse on this like if you're interested in further Information about this you should listen to Gabor Mate who explains very well why people actually become addicts and that it's rarely ever the substance
[00:30:18] Mizter Rad: Mm.
[00:30:19] Anne Philippi: But mainly it's a trauma in you that is wanting to have that feeling That you have when you do this so and so drug. So meaning that some people would Take heroin once and nothing would happen to them other than they would experience the heroin.
Of course, it's an opioid It's it might be a more, you know, kind of a bigger physical explanation around this. Because opioids create addiction. But I mean This whole opioid addiction that we're experiencing now, especially in America is not so much based on the actual addiction to the substance. And I think this is also something that is kind of hard to understand right now still for a lot of people.
[00:31:03] Mizter Rad: I think this is a big barrier, no? A big obstacle for people try
[00:31:06] Anne Philippi: Is. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. So that, I mean, the yeah, and you're right. I mean, and it is, it has a big impact on you. So, it makes sense that people are, you know, have, are fearful around this. Respectful, yeah. So, but, the actual experience is There aren't people who are like, Oh, I need to take now every day 25 gram mushrooms because it's not how your system will work around
[00:31:34] Mizter Rad: Yeah.
[00:31:35] Anne Philippi: And I think the main message here is to say that addiction is not connected to a substance. This is very short, again, a very short explanation because there, if you take, let's say, MDMA all the time, then you will have a problem around neurotoxicity. So, of course, there are other, elements that you need to look into.
But in terms of the actual substance in, in the psychedelic world, it's not about addiction that can come out of it. It's actually bringing more, a lot of people away from their addiction. In terms of, for example and then there was this big study with at the Johns Hopkins University. That I think it was like already a couple of years ago, where they try to find out if people undergoing a guided mushroom experience, magic mushroom experience, if they would stop smoking and meaning getting rid of the addiction with cigarettes.
And a lot of people from the study reported that they saw in the trip the first time why they would actually smoke and what the reason was. How it made them feel and why they needed to chase this feeling, how it made them feel. And some people afterwards, if they then would touch an actual cigarette, they would be like, Oh my God, this
[00:32:47] Mizter Rad: Disgusted.
[00:32:48] Anne Philippi: And so it's a very interesting, of course it's a very new science around these. Because for 30 years there couldn't be research if Nixon wouldn't have criminalized everything We would have way more research now about this, but it's almost like restarting the research since the last five years...
[00:33:08] Mizter Rad: but do you, would you agree that on the one hand you have research and you have to believe you don't have to, but let's say research and scientific studies help take decisions on whether we would take something or not. Or go a certain route or not. But At the same time, when you talk about psychedelics, it is a very personal experience.
And therefore, if you're curious or interested, it could be interesting to you yourself, try it out. Despite the research not being so advanced yet. And see how it affects you or how it positively or negatively, affects you in certain way.
[00:33:51] Anne Philippi: I think like if I understand you correctly, I think I mean there is already of course a lot of knowledge That was you know, kind of I mean one has to say it it went to the underground at one point for therapists who were still, also in America, guiding people who came to them because there was no other solution, that they actually maybe suffering from depression will be able to find.
And I think what's becoming visible now, besides the classic research in universities that are, very established, like we said earlier. It's also that there's a really big network of, I mean, you could say underground therapists who for years have collected experiences and knowledge and insight into how people could actually become better with a psychedelic therapy.
But of course they sometimes are in a very difficult position because you know, do this openly. I mean, even in the Netherlands people are very careful with presenting themselves at such therapists. So, it is kind of a very interesting situation right now where I feel there's tons of knowledge, but this knowledge has to be found by the individual, you know.
It's kind
[00:35:09] Mizter Rad: Right.
[00:35:10] Anne Philippi: Listening to a podcast and for example, there's Melissa Lavassani, the woman who runs Decriminalize Washington. The decrim movement there and moms on mushrooms. Like she, it's a good example, she was a mother of two, or she is, and after her second child she got really into a severe depression, like postpartum depression, and took all kinds of medication, but nothing helped.
So, and then she, she and her husband driving through the country, and she listened to Joe Rogan, and he says like, well, they are magic mushrooms, and they could help you with depression. So she goes out and finds a therapist Who then actually helps her so, you know, it's kind of an accidental moment. She heard about
and So, I think that is still kind of the situation that People are kind of Yeah, kind of, I mean, now there's more, of course, there's more on TV, mainly in America, though.
There's more in the media, so, but it is kind of a, still a weird situation to find therapists.
[00:36:08] Mizter Rad: very, let's say it is not mainstream yet, but do you think it will be mainstream at some point?
[00:36:15] Anne Philippi: Well, I think, I mean, let's say in America what we already see is that there are therapies, there are medical institutions that will offer at one point classic, let's call it classic psychedelic therapy with MDMA and mushrooms. And I mean let's talk about MDMA because Rick Doblin and MAPS are kind of bringing this topic forward to the FDA. Which means that if they would actually say, okay, MDMA therapy now, it's legal, it helps people to get over PTSD.
Then, even if a new government comes on, this would be a very stable, decision the FDA has made. So and then this therapy would probably go first into psychiatries and hospitals or classic therapy practices who will offer this. So this is one thing that is on the way and nobody can say a date but it's Going forward. And then of course in America, for example, you also have states who are starting to decriminalize certain psychedelics or certain amounts of psychedelics like California. And in Oregon, you can already buy mushroom magic mushrooms to a certain point with therapy.
It's also still a little bit under the radar, but you actually can do it. Same goes for Denver similar setup, but a couple of other states are now decriminalizing.
[00:37:44] Mizter Rad: Tell me something: I want to know from your perspective, how do you see the next 50 years? And when I 50 50 for like 50 years, I'll be 90. Almost exiting, hopefully, hopefully I live longer, but I want to know how the future will look like when I'm that old.
And so I want to ask you from your perspective, from the perspective of the psychedelics industry, in your eyes, how the world would look like in 50 years.
[00:38:15] Anne Philippi: Okay. So in the next, in the next 50 years, I think we will have, first of all, like a, let's say a clinical version of this treatment in psychiatry with psychedelics. And I think there's a good chance that our current psychiatry will be already completely disrupted by psychedelic therapy. There will be psychedelic medication, I'm pretty sure. Researched out of psychedelic compounds, which is already happening now.
There are a bunch of biotech companies, pharma, new pharma companies looking into psychedelic medication, which might replace, I mean it's just a possibility. There might replace SSRIs for now, who are, which are not working for most people. And also I think that there will be like a more almost like a day to day, not day to day, but more like a, yeah, recreational, but even the word recreational is already saying, oh on the weekend you're gonna do psychedelics and then you're gonna go on a trip. And then on Monday you're back kind of, you know, back to normal.
I think it will be like a, everybody will be, maybe.
[00:39:28] Mizter Rad: pain a
[00:39:29] Anne Philippi: Yeah, like caffeine. It exactly. And I mean, if you again, like, it's good that you bring up the example of caffeine because there are so many Plant medicines, right? That are actually again, like related to the war on drugs and Michael Pollan again wrote in his book.
This is your mind on plants. He writes about how caffeine came into this system into a Western world. And how it just made people work longer, which was great for building up America. But in theory, caffeine has a lot of, bad elements as much as mushrooms, like, so there's no kind of, it's just, it's just a fabrication of a war on drugs and a very political decision to make some substances legal and others not.
But back to your question, in 50 years, I think we will be reintroduced to using these also psychoactive substances in our daily lives, be it with microdosing to just focus better if you have something to write or to do, if you still do this, or probably AI is writing everything at that point. But I think it will be, if you really think of the decrim aspect, which is moving slowly, but it will move. If that has happened, I think people will be able to look into this to just, yeah, to kind of enhance their lives. Their relationships, their creativity. Once the stigma has gone and you have developed a practice around it, there's a big chance that it will be part of our lives.
[00:41:07] Mizter Rad: That's very nice. Hopefully. Yes, I agree.
[00:41:10] Anne Philippi: Let's see.
[00:41:12] Mizter Rad: Um, quickly, uh, Anne tell me about the economics behind your business because I know you're the founder of The New Health Club. You started your business after you started interviewing a bunch of very interesting people in the field in your podcast,
But what's the business as such?
What do you do exactly in your in The New Health Club?
[00:41:34] Anne Philippi: Yeah. So, like you say, I started a podcast in 2019 when this in this new industry basically came, became visible. And I. I to know Christian Angermeier, who is a really big founder in this field and also an investor. And he supported me with the podcast which became unexpected. and I started right in the beginning of the pandemic.
I started to interview, like you say, a lot of people who were building or started to build this industry at that point. Rick Doblin, David Bronner, Christian Rosalind Watts, Robin Codd Harris, Paul Stamets already said. Gabor Maté. So because Dr. Bronner's came on as a sponsor and Christian supported me very early on, I had the possibility to create a really strong brand around this podcast and also about the New Health Club in a time 2020 when there was still only a very medical language around this. And or a very extremely over spiritualized language around this. And I just took my let's say journalistic experience also as as a GQ reporter in Hollywood a while ago. I just took that and put it into the psychedelic topics and, and interviewed in a similar way, people from this, from the psychedelic world. And this was basically the first step. And we got a couple of investors for that who supported the, let's say the novelty also of this communication around these kind of, yeah, illegal substances. And then the next step was that people started to approach us saying I want to go on a trip. So can you recommend somebody in the Netherlands?
Can you send me somewhere? So we started to work around a referral system and a referral arm, if you want to to send people to legal, safe and vetted experiences. In a place where I knew people would be, it would be a good team. It would be good therapists. And of course there's still some money you can make around the content, but since it's still a topic that is, for both, for a lot of people still very
[00:43:57] Mizter Rad: Controversial
[00:43:59] Anne Philippi: or controversial, it's, uh, it's going forward, but still people are very cautious to look into this. So but in 2024, we actually have a very interesting development happening because what is happening now in the space also is that you have these classic compounds like ketamine, MDMA, LSD, mushrooms, 5 MeO, you name it, who are, as we said earlier, Mostly, and in most places still illegal, although we know what they could do. But now what's happening in the space is that it's almost like a re emergence of something that's called ethnobotany, like basically the rediscovery of plants that people thousands and thousands of years ago used in their cultures. And some of these plants are psychoactive. And some of these plants are just Kind of presenting themselves with a certain energy around them and a certain reaction in your system. Let's say functional mushrooms, for example, which are not psychoactive mushrooms, like for example, chaga or lion's mane or medicinal mushrooms that are not having a psychoactive effect on you.
And I feel almost like there are more and more of these, let's say ethnobotanical, rediscoveries that are almost like mimicking the psychedelics that we are looking into right now. Of course, it's the other way around also a little bit, but you could actually match some of these substances. And I give you an example, there's a South African root called Kana
[00:45:36] Mizter Rad: Mm hmm.
[00:45:37] Anne Philippi: written K A N N A, which is just rediscovered by a bunch of new biotech companies also as a, let's say serotonin mood enhancer, kind of similar, it's very similar, not exactly the same, but similar to a feeling around MDMA. Or there is a, for example also a Canadian company who looks into coca leaves, which we know is It's, the base of cocaine, but the coca leaf itself is not cocaine.
It's used in a very habitual way. I mean, I've been in Argentina in the mountains and we ate coca leaves because to get better around the altitude that we were in. So it wasn't a cocaine experience, as you know, from South America. So it's just, those leaves are just it's a right, it's a plant. It's not an illegal substance per se.
And another thing, it's happening that we see the replacement of alcohol with new molecules. And for example, there's a company called Sentia that creates a drink based on enhancing your GABA receptor, but it doesn't contain alcohol, the GABA receptor in your brain. So, and, um,
[00:46:53] Mizter Rad: So the idea to sell to sell these products on with your brand?
[00:46:56] Anne Philippi: Exactly. So, yeah. And so what we're doing now is to put together all of these products in 2024, collaborating with a lot of these companies on various topics like talks and events at Fotografiska in Berlin and in New York at Neuhaus. But we're also going to sell them and eventually also create our own products around it.
So, and it's, it's really interesting how these, let's say, legal ethnobotany products are re emerging and helping a lot of psychedelic companies to almost like bridge the time until you will be able to sell, I
[00:47:38] Mizter Rad: It's like a first, first, second, first or second steps. We're still taking baby steps towards that final goal.
[00:47:44] Anne Philippi: exactly. Yeah. And I think at one point, let's say the real psychedelics and these Ethnobotany products will merge at one point.
So in the next five to ten years. And, and I think it's, it's an interesting, really great development, which wasn't so visible. For some people it was, but now it's becoming even more visible, like two years ago, and everybody has heard of course of Dennis McKenna and Terrence McKenna, his brother who was basically the most famous ethnobotanist.
And it's an amazing, and I think almost like a, it makes the whole topic even more interesting to see how many products plants are already out there in the world that were always used for these kind of experiences or in a, just in a daily life, like coca leaves again, it's not, and it has nothing to do If you say coca leaves, people will be like, what do you mean?
Like
[00:48:42] Mizter Rad: Yeah, yeah, yeah,
[00:48:43] Anne Philippi: it's like, yeah, but I
[00:48:44] Mizter Rad: There's a lot of there's a lot of ignorance around all these topics as well, right?
[00:48:48] Anne Philippi: Yeah, exactly. And for 2024, this is our goal to really create a sales place for these products. beyond that, also to sell products that are connected to psychedelics in a way that, for example, I mean, again, good example, Apple products are, I mean, it's a very extreme example, but it makes a lot of sense because everybody understands that Apple is basically a product based on a psychedelic experience of Steve Jobs.
Because he saw this, let's say world of Apple , and he just didn't see a computer. And we still buying into this world of Apple. We want this world. We want these products. We want these experiences to look at them. We don't want just a computer, you
[00:49:38] Mizter Rad: right,
[00:49:39] Anne Philippi: and that's until today or Tesla. I mean, like I think Elon Musk is also somebody becoming very open about him looking into psychedelics. And so I think a lot of people who have created really not only incredible brands, but have been driving innovation, they were actually undergoing a couple of very significant trips in their lives. So that's also something that we start to see now kind of.
[00:50:07] Mizter Rad: Absolutely. I work with a lot of artists and I can tell you that a lot of them use some sort of enhancer, let's say, to be creative. So it's definitely part of the human experience. And again, as I told you before, my personal experience, even though it's not as large, maybe as yours, is that psychedelics are a great tool to get into your, um, um, The parts of your brain that are shut for X or Y reason. And not only you find beautiful memories, experiences or traumas that you can heal, but also you find yourself connected to this beautiful world that you didn't know it was there, but it's there and it's there. It's just that we don't see it.
Anne it was a pleasure to have you with us. I'm really happy and grateful that we managed to have this conversation.
[00:50:59] Anne Philippi: No, it was very interesting. The good thing is, it's what we talked about it's basically the main Topics for people to understand how serious this is. That we need to look into these compounds and need to research them and need to have them back into our cultures because they were once there.
[00:51:19] Mizter Rad: Yeah.
[00:51:19] Anne Philippi: And,
[00:51:20] Mizter Rad: And hopefully this is here to stay. It comes to stay. Hopefully it's not being kicked out again by some politicians.
[00:51:27] Anne Philippi: Well, that's the thing. I hate to say it, but that's why the scientific way, I mean, I don't hate to say it, but it's very clear in terms of the FDA example that once there's plenty of research that you can show and then you say, well, look, this is research showing that this helps people with depression. It should be, enough proof that let's say something like the FDA should say, Okay, great. We accept these research. So we legalize now MDMA therapy.
And then if the government changes, then we can be kind of safe that these whatever compounds are available.
And that no political system can change them just overnight, for example. And that's going to be a big topic, how we actually implement them in a way that they are untouched by politics. So that's going to be a very big topic in the future.
[00:52:20] Mizter Rad: Absolutely. Well, again, thank you so much for being here Anne. Until next time, and I hope to see you soon. Maybe next time under a trip of mushrooms.
[00:52:31] Anne Philippi: Well, let's see.