23. Building infrastructure to support life in space.
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Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Daniel Sax, co-founder of the Canadian Space Mining Corp.: Since we've crawled out of the cave, we have been, trying to answer the big questions: who we are. Where we came from. Are we alone? And going to the moon, And doing science. And doing studies, is the most important first step in that. As much as we know about the moon, we still know very little. We have not dug beneath, a meter and a half - two meters. There's still not a consensus actual view of how the moon was born. And so going to the moon is key to answer these big questions. if we are able to extend, and stay In the lunar environment, then I think that will yield a lot of solutions for our big problems on Earth.
[00:00:59] Mizter Rad: Hello, beautiful humans. Today. I'm super excited to learn more about mining for resources in the outer space. Yes, the moon, asteroids and extraterrestrial bodies are being mined to get resources for us here on Earth. That's why I invited Daniel Sax. He is the founder of the Canadian Space Mining Corporation.
And listen to this. These guys are so ambitious. They're creating and building the infrastructure that supports life in space. Daniel, how are you doing?
[00:01:32] Daniel Sax, co-founder of the Canadian Space Mining Corp.: I'm great. Thank you. Thank you. Mizter. Mizter it's very exciting to be here.
[00:01:38] Mizter Rad: Fantastic.
Tell me, Daniel, let's start by, you know, tell me what the heck is space mining and why is it important?
[00:01:45] Daniel Sax, co-founder of the Canadian Space Mining Corp.: Yeah. So, so space mining means a lot of different things to a lot of different people firstly. I think there's several different views of it. We, we at CSMC have one particular view that we focus on, but that's not to say that.
That's all people focus on. Space mining in a, in a very high level is, is literally taking resources from space and utilizing those resources in some capacity. There's another, uh, term for it , a more technical term, which is in situ resource utilization. So it's actually using the resources, uh, where you find them. Kind of like camp craft when you go camping. Utilizing the resources that are around you to either build shelter, to eat, et cetera. And so we're focused on the return to the lunar environment. The Artemis missions, which are, are planning to, uh, establish permanent moon bases in and around 2030. And we'll have boots on the moon around 2025, 2026 with the international community, returning to the moon. All of that will take resources on the moon. And it makes sense to actually produce those resources on the moon from the raw materials there, instead of sending the materials to the moon. So that's really what we're focused on. There there's another perspective of space mining, which is to go out and to go get asteroids and material from other planets and to either, uh, build with that material, consume those materials, or bring that material back to Earth. We're focused on the sustainability facet. And so for us, it's really about how can we bring Less stuff with us as we go to space. Be able to extend our journeys. Be able to uh feed ourselves. Create supplies of oxygen. And supplies of water on other planetary bodies. And be able to refuel our spaceships, uh, so that we can come home and so we can explore further.
[00:03:45] Mizter Rad: So when you talk about in situ resource utilization, you mean, instead of bringing a bunch of resources from here to, let's say, refuel a rocket out there in space you're using whatever you find there, in that Area of this of the outer space, to refuel that same rocket.
[00:04:05] Daniel Sax, co-founder of the Canadian Space Mining Corp.: Correct.
[00:04:06] Mizter Rad: Is that more or less?
[00:04:07] Daniel Sax, co-founder of the Canadian Space Mining Corp.: Yes.
[00:04:07] Mizter Rad: Okay. So what kind of resources can you find out there that are needed? Or are essential for astronauts to be there for a while?
[00:04:14] Daniel Sax, co-founder of the Canadian Space Mining Corp.: Yeah, so, so there's two that we take, uh, very much for granted here on Earth. And one is oxygen.
Obviously, um, we can't go very long without it. And it is very heavy. Liquid oxygen is very heavy by weight. The majority of rocket fuel, um, is oxygen, liquid oxygen. And so, uh, we need oxygen, to survive, as well as to, to refuel rockets. The moon in, in particular, has in rusted metals, the dust is about 40 to 45 percent oxygen, so in, in oxidized metals. And so that's one of our primary focuses is removing that oxygen from the lunar dust, which leaves you with clean base metals like iron, titanium, aluminum, which you can build things with. And then oxygen, which you can, um, use to breathe or refuel rockets. The other thing is obviously water. And water and hydrogen is available, um, throughout the solar system, uh, in different forms.
Hydrogen is quite abundant, um, but it is maybe not in the same form that we see it here in liquid water on Earth. So there is a fractional amount of hydrogen in the some of the regular, uh, the lunar dust. There is also a water ice on the moon in the permanently shadowed craters that haven't seen the sun in billions of years.
And a hydrogen has been deposited there, by solar winds over the eons.
[00:05:43] Mizter Rad: Are we speaking theoretically at the moment? Like, this is not being, mined for at the moment.
[00:05:48] Daniel Sax, co-founder of the Canadian Space Mining Corp.: This is not being mined at the moment, but the, the, there has been... Uh, proof both samples gathered from Apollo. Satellite data and, and other such samples such as ones the Chinese soil samples brought back a couple of months ago, from their latest Chang'e mission. And, and this proves out the geology and the composition of the lunar environment. I mean, we don't know exactly within certain areas. We have some specific notions of what the composition of the regular is. Generally and within large geographic regions that it gets more iffy as you get to, to smaller geographic regions, exactly what the composition is. But we have very good data right now.
[00:06:33] Mizter Rad: So wait, did you say that Chinese were doing a study and they brought a piece of, or a bunch of moon dust and they're doing some studies here on earth?
[00:06:43] Daniel Sax, co-founder of the Canadian Space Mining Corp.: Uh, yes. Well, lots of moon dust has been brought back. So the Apollo, missions brought back thousands of samples of moon dust, many of which are still sealed and NASA is slowly unsealing those over time to study them. And then the Chinese sent up a lander about a year ago and recovered samples. We're able to validate some, uh, what are called, uh, essentially ice glasses within the, uh, little bits of glass that that's kind of ice within the lunar soil, as well as they recovered samples of what is helium three, which is a very rare element, which does not really exist on earth, which is kind of the key to powering, uh, future fusion reactors.
[00:07:32] Mizter Rad: Wow, that's amazing. So basically, is this is this classified material? Or can you, for example, your company have access to this to study it further?
[00:07:42] Daniel Sax, co-founder of the Canadian Space Mining Corp.: I mean, we have so researchers around the world are studying it. Often that information is shared in the public domain, as disclosed by space agencies, etc.
They, you know, with it within space, there is a culture of sharing scientific data and information. So there are researchers around the world who are who are and have been studying these samples for a very long time. We have benefited from that research. We have not ourselves studied those samples.
[00:08:16] Mizter Rad: So what do you, as the Canadian Space Mining Corporation, are doing exactly. What kind of projects are you involved in?
[00:08:23] Daniel Sax, co-founder of the Canadian Space Mining Corp.: Yeah, so we do a couple things. Well, the company started primarily as a space mining company, and that is still... One of the core things that we do. We are really a space infrastructure company that solves long term problems in space. That solve immediate problems on earth.
So we focus on dual use technologies that can be used in space in solving these kind of long term problems, but also are immediately applicable on earth. We do that in three areas. And so these areas, are: resources, which is the space mining part. In health care and in energy. So we have three major projects with the Canadian Space Agency, who is the, you know, the space agency in Canada and the main customer in Canada.
We have just completed a year long study on space mining. I'm creating a road map for Canada to build a world leading space mining industry. Canada is right now the world leader in natural resources. It has the biggest mining industry on the planet. It has the largest capital markets for mining on the planet, where 52% of mining deals get financed globally and where there's a significant knowledge base.
Um, so, so we just led that study. We're working towards the next phase of that study where we'll be working on some processing technologies for how to make water on the moon. Um, and then, uh, we have a couple other technologies within the geophysics area for, for discovering resources on earth or in space for helping to do mining more efficiently on earth, which is a big problem right now.
Mining is very much not a hit and miss industry and mining exploration that's missed times 10 000 and then hit. And all of those 10 000 misses are very environmentally damaging. So if we can Find and locate resources More efficiently, which we need it. We need them, especially in our clean energy transition. We need them to build things in society, such as the cell phone that this Conversation is happening on and all of that IT infrastructure. But we need to figure out how to find them more efficiently, So that we can do less damage to the land and, and be better stewards, of our planet.
[00:10:45] Mizter Rad: How do you, sorry, sorry to interrupt, interrupt. But how do you do that exactly? Because I, I guess a lot of mining companies are, you know, people working in this space are definitely trying to be a bit cleaner. How do you guys do that? And how is that related to the space? Because you also mentioned, you threw in there, that you want to understand how to get water when you're in the outer space.
How do you find water in the outer space? How do you do that?
[00:11:12] Daniel Sax, co-founder of the Canadian Space Mining Corp.: So we're creating
new new sensors that are AI and quantum based for detecting resources on the moon in doing so and figuring out how to find water on the moon and doing so we've created solutions that are applicable on Earth immediately.
And so a lot of that focuses around how to find grant groundwater, how to find resources, uh, below the surface. Well, it's true that people are trying to make mining on earth more efficient. I would also say that there is an economic incentive problem. A lot of companies make money off those, a lot of people make money off those misses in mining exploration.
Um, you know...
[00:11:53] Mizter Rad: when you say misses on the mining exploration, what do you mean exactly?
[00:11:57] Daniel Sax, co-founder of the Canadian Space Mining Corp.: So every borehole that you drill on a mine site, right. Or every, you know, seismic study is very expensive. Every borehole is anywhere between. 100, 000 and 1, 000, 000 $ per borehole often drilled every 10 meters on a site, right?
So when mine is doing early stage exploration. They cut down a bunch of trees, they blow a lot of stuff. They run seismic surveys. They, they dig. Then they drill boreholes where they think they're going to find material. So if we can increase the confidence of finding material and find, less destructive ways to gain that confidence, then we can solve kind of a real big problem.
So that's what we're focused on within that domain, uh, the, the resources side of the business, and obviously long term we want to build a world leading space resources business and, and help disrupt, the terrestrial, mining industry. In, in the healthcare front, we just built a prototype space hospital.
So our early stage prototype of a lunar hospital, for the Canadian Space Agency. Canada had identified that it wants to, uh, lead the world in, uh, space health care as we go from having a couple astronauts in orbit to potentially, you know, in 10 or 15 years, having hundreds of astronauts in orbit. And having people live on the moon. The health challenges in space, compound, extensively.
And so Canada wants to build the capability, uh, uh, industrial capability towards, being able to deliver, healthcare in space. So we just built the shipping container hospital, which is the early stage prototype of a moon hospital. It's not designed to go to the moon. It's really a solution for remote communities and the Arctic.
For disaster relief and a bunch of other, challenges. We built that over the last seven months, for the CSA. Demonstrated it to them a couple of weeks ago. And we'll be delivering them that prototype in a couple of weeks.
[00:14:04] Mizter Rad: Let's focus a bit on that prototype. Cause I find it super interesting. So first of all, you said you, you use that in the Arctic here on earth.
But as far as I understand, and as far as I've experienced, I've had the chance to go to the Arctic a couple of times. The environment in those areas are super rough and it's hard to live there. There's no, there's no vegetation, nothing really grows there. Of course you can get water, but, it's, it's just, it's just super harsh conditions for human life.
And so it kind of makes sense to me that you want to use that prototype in those areas here on Earth and slowly improve and make that prototype better and better so that at some point, you can take that to the moon. And like you said, instead of having only 2 or 3 astronauts, you could have hundreds of astronauts living there.
But what are those things in the prototype that make it, important or what is the prototype providing to people living in the Arctic areas, but in the future, astronauts in the outer space?
[00:15:05] Daniel Sax, co-founder of the Canadian Space Mining Corp.: Yeah. So, so right now in the Canadian Arctic, right, you have indigenous communities, in the territories that are living in that area for a very long time, you know, predate, the history of Canada. The nearest hospital may be 10 hours away. They may be in communities that do not have roads other than ice roads in the winter. So they're fly in only communities.
So how do we deliver health care and infrastructure in a place where it's very hard to build it otherwise. And so our idea is this it's what we call C3. It's the connected care capsule. It is a, uh, concept, um, so financially supported by the, the CSA, to, uh, deliver scalable, healthcare in, in these communities in a way where we think we can build the infrastructure offsite. And then through a shipping container, which is multimodal can be dropped by, by air, by boat, by train, Um, a truck, um, allows us to scale this type of advanced infrastructure in these communities.
We have designed a prototype, right? And that prototype has, integration of various medical devices. So 20 different medical devices and uses that we've conceptualized. From ambulatory triage of therapy and medical imaging. The reality is the needs in the individual communities are different. So as we move to scale this and commercialize it we're gonna have to respond To the individual needs in those communities, right?
Do they need medical imaging technologies?
Do they need something that is just ambulatory ER?, do they need an infirmary? Do they need something that has you know, a neonatal?
I don't wanna necessarily say that like, we've designed it and this is the solution for a community. It's, we've designed it to be flexible. Right? Yeah. And I think we, we will have to work for the end users, whether those are, indigenous communities. Whether those are, are hospital, uh, units, super regional hospitals, provincial authorities, etcetera. Where we design pilot projects and are working towards pilot projects right now that that address those specific needs, right?
[00:17:23] Mizter Rad: Tell me something, this connected care capsules or this mobile hospitals, how do you power them? What kind of energy do they use at the moment, and how do you think about this when this goes in the outer space, how is this gonna be powered up?
[00:17:39] Daniel Sax, co-founder of the Canadian Space Mining Corp.: Yeah, I mean, that, um, we have some, some thoughts around how it's powered in space. I think for the initial prototype, power wasn't, a consideration that we had to address. It was kind of a given. Like, you will be given, Power on site for it.
I think there's several ways to do it. If there's a grid you could you could plug into that grid or energy source. It could be powered, by generators, which is, uh, not ideal, obviously, because of carbon emissions.
You could do a mixture of, uh, uh, solar fuel cell, uh, wind and geothermal, um, depending on, uh, where it's situated. And then there's obviously, off grid kind of nuclear solutions, which I'll get into.
In space, we, we see a mixture, you know, in the lunar environment... power, which is the the kind of third domain of our business, is the energy business.
And I think primarily you have, some facets of solar power. But in the lunar environment, what you have is a day night cycle, right? So when we look up and we see a full moon, or an empty moon, we're effectively watching the lunar day night cycle. That day night cycle is 14 days long each, so it's 14 days of day, 14 days of night. During that night period... during that day period it's extremely hot in a lunar environment. We're talking about, you know, 200 degrees Celsius, right?
[00:19:06] Mizter Rad: Sorry, wait, give, gimme a pause here because I, I'm not sure if I'm, I'm familiar with the lunar cycle. So you're talking about when you're out there in space,
[00:19:15] Daniel Sax, co-founder of the Canadian Space Mining Corp.: you see a crescent moon, right? That what you are seeing is a tiny portion of the moon, a sliver of the moon in day and the rest of the moon in night. That's why it's dark. So the moon is always there, right? You know, it's never, it never disappears.
It's shape is always the same. You're seeing what portion of the moon is in in day at that time and what portion is at night. For the side that is facing us, right? There's always one side facing us because we're tidally locked. And so during the day, it's about 200 degrees Celsius. It's very hot on the lunar surface. And during the night it's downwards of, minus 160 degrees or less than that, in the lunar environment.
And so it's very cold and that right now kills all technology , right? So you cannot survive in a lunar environment on just solar power. You need thermal energy because solar power will keep you powered through the lunar day, and then all the equipment will die in the cold temperatures and never be able to turn back on.
And so, our third tier of our business, is the energy business. CSMC has been funded by the Canadian Space Agency as one of five micro reactors. One of five nuclear reactors for the lunar environment. There's three funded by NASA. One funded in the UK by Rolls Royce. And then us. And we're all competing to deliver solutions for reliable nuclear power, uh, to keep infrastructure warm and functioning in the lunar environment.
[00:20:56] Mizter Rad: So what exactly are you doing with that funding? What kind of research are you working on in terms of energy?
[00:21:01] Daniel Sax, co-founder of the Canadian Space Mining Corp.: We are advancing a reactor, in R& D phases towards, a solution for the lunar environment as well as what we see as a solution for the Arctic where, diesel power right now is, uh, killing the Arctic.
So diesel power, is the main way of powering things in the Arctic. Diesel generators. Those generators Give off a lot of black soot that is covering the ice. The ice is therefore melting instead of reflecting the sunlight and having a high albedo. It's absorbing the sunlight because that black soot. And it is melting the Arctic at a four to five times faster rate than the rest of the planet is heating.
So, and that is also killing the rest of the planet because if the Arctic melts, then we're all fucked. And so that's really kind of the, the core dual use we're going after in, uh, the energy area... is to help, uh, uh, STEM, the existing use of, uh, diesel generators in the Arctic by delivering , a safe, small scale nuclear reactor that can replace these individual generators, in the Arctic.
[00:22:12] Mizter Rad: So talk to me a bit more about this small nuclear reactor and how do you see that expanding or being replicated in in the outer space? Where do you get the raw materials from, for example, when you go outside of planet earth?
[00:22:29] Daniel Sax, co-founder of the Canadian Space Mining Corp.: Yeah. So we would be producing nuclear fuel on earth. There, there is uranium, in space and in the lunar environment, but I, I don't, I don't expect that we're going to be producing, fuel, in that area. We can send up a reactor, which has you know, 30 plus years of fuel with it, which is more than long enough for, for the time being, right?
In 30 years, we may be able to make more fuel here to, to refuel that reactor or to make more fuel on the moon to refuel up there. But, I guess that's not a problem for us now to address.
[00:23:03] Mizter Rad: Right? But is there something that you can do in situ when it comes to energy? Because you were talking about how in for example, in the surface of the moon you can use the moon dust to, get different resources, including if I'm not wrong, you said, hydrogen.
Is there anything that can fuel that can fuel that like, because every infrastructure, no matter if you build it in the Arctic or here in Italy or in the moon, whatever, you need energy. So I'm trying to understand how can you instead of like bringing up some sort of, fuel from earth to the moon.
So it might be not so environmentally friendly on the one hand, costly on the on the other hand, what kind of resources can you use theoretically...that are there already?
[00:23:51] Daniel Sax, co-founder of the Canadian Space Mining Corp.: You've got to get ... got to get the process right. I mean, I think that's a key thing to understand, right? Like, you've got to get it started in the lunar environment. And that's going to take us bringing Technology there to kind of bootstrap that process, right?
Once you have that, and once you can process lunar dust and lunar materials, then you can start to make stuff from that you can manufacture solar panels in the lunar environment from the dust. Blue Origin, Jeff Bezos's company just got awarded a contract from NASA from, for turning lunar dust into solar panels.
But you're going to have to bring a power source up there to do that in the first place, right? Um, you can't just, uh, uh, start that from scratch. And to have enough thermal energy to be able to do that, uh, to be able to keep up the regolith to process it and to separate out the materials, which is a chemical process, which requires heat, you're not going to do that, which is the solar panels alone, bringing solar panels. Um, so you need you. And if you just have the solar panels, it's likely that that process would die after about two weeks, right? Because you wouldn't survive the lunar night. So in order to just survive the lunar night, we need something that can generate heat.
If you look at all of the Mars rovers that have, gone to Mars and all the deep space probes, they all have had, um, what are called RTGs, uh, radioactive thermal generators in them. They had essentially decaying plutonium, uh, inside of them to keep them warm. It's very cold in space. Right. And so if you send the technology without something to keep it warm, it won't survive.
[00:25:36] Mizter Rad: I see. And, so. When you talked because you talked about returning to the lunar environment and you talked about the Artemis project, why don't you tell us a bit more about it and what is the plan here between, I think there's 25 countries that signed the deal. Maybe you can tell us more about it.
And how do you, as a company, Would like to be involved in this or how do you play a role here, if any?
[00:26:01] Daniel Sax, co-founder of the Canadian Space Mining Corp.: Yeah, so so there's I want to separate out two things: There's like the artemis accords and then there's the artemis program. And they're really two separate things. So the artemis accords are our principles for Uh commercial use of extraterrestrial resources and it's how we deal with resources in space. It is building upon the existing Regulatory framework in space, which is the outer space treaty, as well as a couple other U. N. Treaties. And it is early stages toward the international community creating a framework for how to do commercial activities in space, particularly around space, resources, et cetera. Canada was 1 of the 1st signatories on that, along with the U. S., and others. And as you said, it's now at 20 something signatory.
Then there's the Artemis missions, right? Which are, uh, NASA, uh, an international communities. So European Space Agency, Canadian Space Agency, et cetera, uh, JAXA, et cetera, missions, um, to to return to the moon and to stay there. And along the way to create the capabilities for humans to stay in space on other planets.
[00:27:18] Mizter Rad: When you say capabilities you you mean infrastructure?
[00:27:21] Daniel Sax, co-founder of the Canadian Space Mining Corp.: Infrastructure, know how, technologies um, it it's everything right.
Like we We need to know how to do it. How to run operations. How do we actually operate in these environments. We have to solve a lot of the key problems, like the, the lunar dust problem, which is, is a big problem. Lunar dust itself is Uh, very coarse and sharp, abrasive, um, it gets into everything.
It was a large problem, for the Apollo astronauts. That got into their spacesuits, spacecraft, got into everything. And so how do you mitigate lunar dust is, is a challenge, but the idea
[00:27:58] Mizter Rad: of, but this, sorry, sorry, this is the same dust that has all this super important elements as well that can be used for like positive stuff on the other hand...
[00:28:09] Daniel Sax, co-founder of the Canadian Space Mining Corp.: it's quite positive when you're using it.
It's not positive if you're breathing it in, in your spacesuit. Like, you know, any kind of resource here. Artemis is really about, creating this kind of moon to Mars architecture, right? That humans will one day get off to Mars. But return to the lunar environment create these capabilities to live off planet.
And then along with that we have to think about the reason we're going, right? Since we've crawled out of the cave, right, metaphorically or literally, we have been, trying to answer the big questions: who we are, where we came from, right? Are we alone? And going to the moon, and staying there and and doing science and doing studies is the most important first step in that. The same way that people have been transfixed by what has gone on with James Webb and the images coming back, and the increased data and knowledge about the universe that has given us. We ...as much as we know about the moon, we still know very little. We have not dug beneath, about a meter and a half - two meters in the lunar environment.
We still know only a tiny fraction. There's still not a consensus actual view of how the moon was born. And so going to the moon and doing this important work is very key for us, to answer these big questions. And it's also an area where if we are able to extend, and stay In the lunar environment, then I think that will yield a lot of solutions for our big problems on Earth, right?
The advances in, space technology and agriculture from the space station have yielded, big applications on Earth. There's some work that's being done on plant genetics in space that are extremely important. You look at other
[00:30:03] Mizter Rad: did you say plant genetics?
[00:30:04] Daniel Sax, co-founder of the Canadian Space Mining Corp.: Yes
[00:30:05] Mizter Rad: in space?
Oh, wow. That sounds amazing. What is that?
[00:30:09] Daniel Sax, co-founder of the Canadian Space Mining Corp.: Oh, I mean they've been growing uh plants on the ISS for a while, right? And they've been experimenting with plant genetics on the effects of Radiation. Seeing if they can create more hardy crops in space to address the big problems we have with producing food and shortage of agriculture on Earth.
Space has a long history of solving problems in that area that are directly applicable to our problems on earth.
[00:30:35] Mizter Rad: I think that's why a lot of people a lot of people wouldn't even get there. Wouldn't even get to think that. And some people might even think that... and I'm going to play devil's advocate here, because some people might think when I was preparing for this interview, some people asked me, Hey, why are we spending resources in exploring the outer space, if we have so many problems here that we can solve with that same money. But you're telling me that, some problems that are being solved in space or some opportunities that are being found in space can be applicable here as well.
[00:31:11] Daniel Sax, co-founder of the Canadian Space Mining Corp.: I mean, this is historically been the case. A lot of the innovations that we rely upon today would not... to function our everyday society and to address these problems... would not exist if we didn't invest in space exploration over the past several decades. GPS, what people use to get around the planet that we get, goods and materials around the planet and run our entire logistics on, would not function without space. M. R. I. Technology, created effectively from a mixture of work on satellites as well as, image processing software that was developed for the lunar environment. Velcro that you're that you use on things. Video conferencing technologies. A number of, uh, key, key terrestrial technologies have been developed in space.
Many of them as intentional, solving problems that we intended to solve. But many of them is accidental. Trying to solve one problem and you end up solving Uh, creating a dual use solution in another domain, right?
In solving these problems in space, we're able to create solutions that are applicable on Earth. It puts certain constraints on us relative to how much mass and energy we have in space, which are quite restricted, because all of those are very expensive in space. And so we create more efficient solutions for Earth.
And then fundamentally, I, I think there's this you know, whole thing of, well, you know, we shouldn't explore. We are explorers. This is, this is who we are. Only in, pursuing that exploration, do we achieve the best of the human spirit. And the best of human creativity. And everything else that is applicable to these big problems on earth.
[00:33:05] Mizter Rad: When you talk about exploration, you have a bunch of countries and space agencies and also private companies working in the space of space exploration. Do you feel that it could get to a point at some point where, you know, how you have, for example, illegal mining here on planet Earth? Could you have that at some point as well, this battle almost for conquering, I don't know, whatever planet and that creating a lot of conflict, but also illegal, explorations or illegal mining or illegal, conquering of spaces in, on the outer space.
[00:33:45] Daniel Sax, co-founder of the Canadian Space Mining Corp.: Look, we, we, we are, we are humans, right? And we are innately flawed creatures . We, bring with us to space all of our facets . Our best characteristics and unfortunately our worst characteristics. We have historically, cooperated quite well in space, right? Like space is still the only place where the U. S. and Russia are cooperating and have been for a long time. Is there room for bad actors in space? For sure, right? Like it is definitely a possibility. Whether those are nation states, whether those are individual companies or individuals. I think it's definitely a possibility. That's why we have to work towards creating regulatory frameworks. And towards updating existing regulatory frameworks to this new generation of space exploration. When the outer space treaty was created, it only really envisioned, you know, in the 60s, it only really envisioned, uh, commercial actors in space or nation states in space .
It didn't really envision commercial actors. So there is this need that the existing regulations are, pushing on the boundaries of, of the current state of space and we need to update them for the new framework. Where you now have, uh, both, you know, you've gone from 10 or, you know, a dozen or a couple dozen, uh, spacefaring nations to now upwards of almost a hundred and growing day by day. Where the cost of launching a satellite has gone from a billion dollars to a couple hundred thousand dollars.
[00:35:24] Mizter Rad: That is amazing!
[00:35:25] Daniel Sax, co-founder of the Canadian Space Mining Corp.: And students can build their own satellites, right? Student teams build their own satellites. There's just this huge proliferation. And, and with that, our regulatory framework has to grow. That has to assume that we are going to cooperate and work together. But that framework also has to assume and have some sort of structure for negating bad actors. For dealing with bad actors. And for responsibility around bad actors. Right now, if I were to do something a wrong in space, uh, it would flow up to my nation states, so Canada would have responsibility for that.
[00:36:00] Mizter Rad: Oh, really? So even if you're a private company, your sort of country takes responsibility for whatever bad action you do in the outer space?
[00:36:08] Daniel Sax, co-founder of the Canadian Space Mining Corp.: Correct.
[00:36:09] Mizter Rad: Oh, okay. Interesting. Is there any, it is actually, is it legal...
okay, so this is what I want to know. Is it legal to mine asteroids or take out some part of the moon. Dig into it. Is it... is it legal? What? What kind of legal framework is there? In place right now?
[00:36:26] Daniel Sax, co-founder of the Canadian Space Mining Corp.: It depends who you ask. And it depends where you ask that question. Okay, so there are five countries that have passed space mining laws, which give a clear regulatory framework for space mining.
It's the U. S., Japan, UAE, Luxembourg and most recently India. Outside of that, there are not clear space mining laws and and we have to come to a set of space mining laws internationally.
[00:36:52] Mizter Rad: But so do you mean that a U.S. Company or a company from Dubai or India can go out there and mine an asteroid or the moon and and have no legal problem. But if it's the company outside of those territories, they might have a legal problem or how does...
[00:37:08] Daniel Sax, co-founder of the Canadian Space Mining Corp.: I mean within the the laws of those countries, yes. Within international law It's more questionable, right? So, so again, like, and, and that's not a good way for us to operate. We need to come to a consensus globally. And, and as well, Russia and China are going to need to be part of that consensus.
[00:37:28] Mizter Rad: How do you think we get to that consensus?
Because I feel like it's so hard to put every, every one of us together, under the same sort of objective. Running towards the same goal. And you can see that in a lot of different aspects in life, in our existence, but now this seems to be even more transcendental, because if we mess up the moon or the sun or whatever, it's just going to affect all of us.
Do you feel that that's actually a positive thing that is kind of for sure affecting all of us if we mess up the outer space?
[00:38:02] Daniel Sax, co-founder of the Canadian Space Mining Corp.: For sure. I mean, if we mess up the ocean, it affects all of us, right? I think there's a lot of, examples of that. I think we have a responsibility to be good stewards of space.
Like on earth, we also need to utilize these resources in order to function. And we have to find the right framework to do that. I think the Artemis Accords are a great first step by the international community and seems to be a snowballing or growing consensus among the international community as... as at least a base framework to build off.
How do we do that? There are international and government policy experts working all the time at a U. N. level discussing this. How long that takes to achieve that and what that end framework looks like , I can't tell you, right? I, I have some ideas of how it should look and, and some of the things that it should consider.
But in, in the end, it's not me who's negotiating it. At, at my level, it's the Canadian government. And we interface with the Canadian government and, and the great policy people within the Canadian Space Agency, and Foreign Affairs Canada. And we, give them our thoughts on how they should consider or what they should consider, uh, for this stuff, but, but it is all part of their international negotiations with their colleagues and allies around the world.
I, I, I think, I would say, though, it is constructive. There are constructive discussions happening around the world. And again, space is seems to be the one area, where, at least in some capacity, we all agree internationally that we should work together and talk about and try and find solutions for.
Which is positive. Exactly. Which is positive, right? Like the, the, there has been sabre-rattling around, uh, computing plans. So the Artemis missions. And then the Chinese plan to build a lunar colony. But recently there's been some news around the Chinese finding, participants and, and maybe the European space agency playing a role within the Chinese plan.
[00:40:14] Mizter Rad: And so they're still working together. It's not like...
[00:40:17] Daniel Sax, co-founder of the Canadian Space Mining Corp.: space is this area where there is this hope to work together. Where we have a history of work together. Of working together. It seems to be the only area where we can work together as humans. Right? And so it is positive. Right? And I think you've got to have a positive mindset towards it, that we can find a regulatory framework to address how to, how to deal with this commercial activity. How to deal with this resource activity. And how to how to be in the space and hopefully be peaceful together .
[00:40:47] Mizter Rad: When, when do you think we'll be in the moon again, actually?
[00:40:50] Daniel Sax, co-founder of the Canadian Space Mining Corp.: Well, I think there, there will be, uh, boots on the moon, the Artemis missions. And I think, uh, 2026, there will be a mission that goes around the moon and late 2024, the Artemis two mission, which will have a Canadian astronaut, Jeremy Hansen on, on it, as well as three, uh, American astronauts. And then the first mission to the lunar surface looks like it's going to be in 2026. That's the Artemis three mission.
There's a couple of interdependent parts on there, but it should have, by my understanding, the first person to set foot on the moon will be a woman. Or to set foot on the moon again in
[00:41:24] Mizter Rad: 2026. 2026, in three years, more or less.
[00:41:27] Daniel Sax, co-founder of the Canadian Space Mining Corp.: To establish kind of permanent moon bases by 2030.
there's also a space station under construction right now called Gateway. And that's fully funded. That's a new space station. That's going to be in lunar orbit, similar to the ISS, but, uh, circling the moon. Gateway is under construction. It's fully funded. It should be operational and up there around 2027.
[00:41:50] Mizter Rad: That's amazing. Do you believe in life in the outer space? Extraterrestrial life?
[00:41:55] Daniel Sax, co-founder of the Canadian Space Mining Corp.: I think it's, um, a certainty. The universe is so vast. It is hard to comprehend. I think you look at how much this planet is teeming with life. The existence of water on other planetary bodies right? On, on Mars. Water ice on the moon. And that's just the two nearest rocks to us. There has to be life out there. What form that life is, is another question altogether . What we consider intelligent is another form altogether, right? I mean, there's, you know, the human centric view is that we are the only intelligent creatures on this planet, I think there is science and data to suggest otherwise. There seems to be other sentient and conscious beings on this planet, whether they're mammals in the ocean, like whales. Whether they're, you know, uh, cephalopods, like, like octopus. Whether they're your dog, that seem to have some form of intelligence. And, and plant life as well. The mushroom kingdom, the, the fungal kingdom has, right, you know, its own side. So, so what, what is intelligent life? I mean, I think is like an even bigger philosophical question.
[00:43:14] Mizter Rad: That's a very interesting question anyway. And I think that's, uh, sometimes I feel like we humans are too arrogant to accept that on the one hand, we don't know how to answer that question. And on the other hand, there might the answer might be that so many other species that are, you could say, considerably more developed, let's say, than us.
That's definitely a philosophical point that might be for another conversation.
How do you feel that the future Will look like in the next 50 years from your lens, from your life experience, from your expertise, from what you're seeing in your industry, in your environment... what do you think is going to happen?
[00:43:54] Daniel Sax, co-founder of the Canadian Space Mining Corp.: Look, I am fundamentally optimistic. But also realistic and pragmatic. You look around the world and what's going on and the challenges we face, they are immense. We are definitely in for some tougher times than we have had. But we are on this accelerating path of, Solutions and technology to address those problems.
Fundamentally, it comes down to us and our, our choices as individuals. We have, a responsibility to take care of the earth. And to try in our own way to move the needle, to steer the ship, in the right direction. I founded CSM...
[00:44:38] Mizter Rad: But do you think, do you think, do you think we'll be mining, in the outer space, sooner?
[00:44:43] Daniel Sax, co-founder of the Canadian Space Mining Corp.: Mining in space, certainly to make water and oxygen on the moon by, uh, 2030.
[00:44:49] Mizter Rad: wow.
[00:44:50] Daniel Sax, co-founder of the Canadian Space Mining Corp.: Yeah. Asteroids, probably seven years after that. Mining, mining material on asteroids. You know, on Mars by the mid 2030s, like physically on Mars by the mid 2030s.
[00:45:03] Mizter Rad: Is this, is this, do you think this is out of fear that we are running out of resources here and life is just, the planet is coming to an end, and so we kind of have to escape and find other ways? Or, or, or do you think is that curiosity and that exploration drive of humans that is driving that quest of exploring the outer space... or both?
[00:45:27] Daniel Sax, co-founder of the Canadian Space Mining Corp.: Everyone has their own motivation my friend. You know, for me, that, that exploration that need to answer these fundamental questions, these philosophical questions, these biological questions, The existential questions, uh, of us. And and in doing so to find solutions to address our big problems here.
I don't want to live on Earth where we've given up hope. I think, hope is an important thing to have. I think we can solve Earth's problems. Are there people out there who are focused on space exploration because they think Earth is fucked and we need to get off it. Sure. if they're contributing towards the other goals, is that necessarily a bad thing? Everyone has their own motivations. As long as we're working together towards some of the same goals. I think that's, what's important.
[00:46:22] Mizter Rad: Daniel talking about motivation, cause when I was preparing for this conversation with you, I realized that you come from a very diverse background.
You were not in the space industry before. And so I wonder what was your motivation to get into this? As far as I know, you were in real estate and you even touched the cannabis industry before, in Canada, that of course is a big thing, or at least in the last years. But then you moved into, the space industry. What was the motivation?
How did that happen actually? Yeah. Find that super interesting.
[00:46:57] Daniel Sax, co-founder of the Canadian Space Mining Corp.: Yeah. I think the, the motivation for me, um, was quite simple. I, I think like many people, I had a bit of an existential crisis at the beginning of the pandemic. I'd spent my whole career working in, in real estate. Initially getting into it to work on sustainable land development, and to build communities.
I ended up working on about four, four and a half billion dollars of real estate deals, development deals, finance, et cetera, in North America and in Europe. And I think I, I, I realized at the beginning of the pandemic that life was very fleeting. Things could change , on a dime and and our time was very precious.
And we needed to spend that time. You needed to spend your time. I need to spend my time in the most impactful way possible, that I could be proud of what I've done because that time could end tomorrow, right?
[00:47:54] Mizter Rad: Anytime.
[00:47:55] Daniel Sax, co-founder of the Canadian Space Mining Corp.: Anytime. I started focusing around this idea of doing something that could move the needle for civilization. That brought me, and some friends initially to, to space, and to space mining.
I had found and we'd come across this idea of the return to the moon going on. Canada had identified space mining being of strategic national importance. And when I looked around, nobody was doing anything about it. So I just said: hey, I'm unqualified, but I'll start making phone calls. Um, you know,
[00:48:30] Mizter Rad: that's a, that's a very interesting message for people that are listening.
Cause a lot of times we were kind of stuck in our bubble and we think we cannot do, we cannot go outside of that bubble cause you're, you have certain skills, certain experience and you're too old maybe at some point to, to, to move away off of that job that you have at the moment. So I think this is an interesting message.
Please continue.
[00:48:51] Daniel Sax, co-founder of the Canadian Space Mining Corp.: Yeah, I think, look, you've got to be cognizant of your own shortcomings, right? Like I think if I had the hubris to say: Hey, I can design all the technology to make this happen. I can execute a space mining mission on my own. Well, that would just never work, right? But, for me to realize: Hey, I don't know these things. I have none of the technical skills. But I do have some, some good business skills and ability to go out and talk to people. And I've worked on a lot of complex interdisciplinary projects in my career. And I just view this through that lens. This is another complex interdisciplinary project. Where you've got to pull a bunch of people together from different backgrounds. Where you've got to coalesce them around a common vision. Finance it. Convince people, that it's a smart idea.
And so I just started making phone calls and one thing led to another. Everyone I called wanted to help. I think it's a unique thing with space. I think also my timing was quite good and that is... early in the pandemic, and people were bored and reachable. So they, they had a time to get ahold of them. And they wanted people to talk to. But you know, the government who we called up started taking us seriously. I think we had initially just found someone from the Canadian government who worked in space on Twitter. And sent her, Sam Kondi, shout out to her, a DM and been like: Hey, I'm working outside of space .
Can I talk to you?
And that snowballed to meeting with the Canadian government. And they were very receptive. And lo and behold , uh, at some point I had, um, I'd say unintentionally started a space company from what started off as a, project. And here we are a couple of years later. this morning we just made an announcement that a former, chief NASA astronaut who retired from NASA on Monday, Drew Feustel, who is a extremely storied and experienced astronaut and geophysicist, joined our company yesterday as the, EVP of strategy.
You know, brings decades of experience and...
[00:50:53] Mizter Rad: there you go. You didn't do two, three years ago. You didn't know how to start it because you didn't have the exact skills, you know, from outer space expert, but now you have, uh, more than an expert in your team.
[00:51:07] Daniel Sax, co-founder of the Canadian Space Mining Corp.: Yeah. Yeah. Correct. I think I'm lucky to have found, a fantastic group of people, willing to help and wanting to be part of this mission.
It's all very surreal and very, pinched myself.
[00:51:19] Mizter Rad: That's amazing
[00:51:20] Daniel Sax, co-founder of the Canadian Space Mining Corp.: what I'm doing every day and very happy to have this opportunity.
[00:51:24] Mizter Rad: That's amazing, Daniel. And I can I can feel the good energy. I think it's very inspiring what you're doing. And it's also a good message for for all those people listening in because like I said before, sometimes we we kind of feel that we cannot do stuff that is out of our expertise. But everything is possible and you're an example of that. And I really want to thank you for sharing your story. For inspiring others to take a risk and be courageous. But also for working on this super exciting and crucial and important topics for us as humans and for the future of our species as well.
Is there anything else you would like to share with us, besides the good news that you just shared?
[00:52:08] Daniel Sax, co-founder of the Canadian Space Mining Corp.: No, I, I think that's it. I am honored as well. I appreciate you having me on this podcast. It's been a really amazing conversation. Follow CSMC on, on Twitter, on LinkedIn and wherever you find us, on the internet. And follow along our story. We're just, trying to, to move this needle for civilization and, um, and, and trying to do our part towards solving these big problems on earth.
[00:52:33] Mizter Rad: That's fantastic. CSMC, that's the Canadian Space Mining Corporation led by Daniel Sax and with a bunch of really interesting and smart people in their team. Daniel, thank you so much. I say hello from Italy at the moment and I hope to meet you in real life anytime.
[00:52:51] Daniel Sax, co-founder of the Canadian Space Mining Corp.: Thank you. Ciao.
[00:52:52] Mizter Rad: Ciao, ciao. Have a good day.
Bye.