21. The world's most vulnerable places through the lens of an impact photographer.

Episode Transcript

[00:00:00] Christian Clauwers: Norwegian whalers slaughtered about 150,000 whales in about 30 years. What they did is they introduced reindeer all the way from Norway. So crossing the whole Atlantic Ocean, north Atlantic, then South Atlantic's.

They thought if we introduce these species, they won't have natural enemies. So every time we go there we can just shoot some reindeer. And we'll have something different than whale meat. The problem was that these reindeer they have the same food pattern as the pintail duck.

So at this very moment, a species either dies out, it extincts, or it adapts. And in the case of the pintail duck, this duck evolved to the only omnivoric duck in the world. It's the only duck that eats meat, carcasses, dead animals, dead seals.

This is the way they survived. I think the future of humanity is either we adapt. Or we get extinct. It's very simple.

[00:00:46] Mizter Rad: Hello, beautiful humans. Today I'm sitting down with Christian Clauwers. He is a professional photographer with a focus on science and climate change. With his photography, he likes to investigate the tension between man and nature. And here's the cool thing: he's particularly interested in the polar regions and oceans.

And I want to know why in a second. I met Christian last week in Svalbard, close to the North Pole. It was an amazing trip. An amazing atmosphere and great people that I met. We were both depositing digital assets in a vault, in the permafrost for perpetuity. And if you want to know more about this, check out my episode 16.

I wanted to invite Christian because he, in my opinion, he's one of the few humans that is being able to visit some of the most hidden remote territories in our planet. And I think Christian, more than a photographer, is an explorer with first hand experience and knowledge about our nature and the current state of our planet.

Christian, how was your flight back from Svalbard?

[00:02:17] Christian Clauwers: It was great. Thank you, Mario. It was a late night flight. Which is always great to, uh, you know, to cover the time while sleeping. So, uh, it was okay. Thanks.

[00:02:28] Mizter Rad: It's crazy how the light doesn't go off. No?

You're in that territory and it's always bright and sunny, sometimes cloudy, but when I took the flight back, it was, uh, 2 AM in the morning and the sun was full on.

[00:02:45] Christian Clauwers: That's correct. You know, the midnight sun, it's actually much more magical in wintertime. Just imagine all the purples that become pink, uh, two weeks later. And then, you know, deep orange becomes yellow. And then you start to have blue skies and, and, and clouds.

[00:03:00] Mizter Rad: So you've been there also in the winter?

[00:03:02] Christian Clauwers: Yes, I've been many years and, uh, since 2013, that was my first visit. And that's where really everything started for me. Okay. This, uh, this trip in 2013. So...

[00:03:15] Mizter Rad: and why, why did you, why did you go there so many times?

[00:03:18] Christian Clauwers: Well, in 2013, I was curious the short answer to the question that people often ask, like Christian, why do you do what you're doing is that I'm just curious.

That's the short version.

[00:03:31] Mizter Rad: That's super interesting. I'm doing what I'm doing. And like talking with people like you because I'm curious as well, so that there's a point there.

[00:03:41] Christian Clauwers: It's a very good characteristic. So in 2013, I went, uh, with my cameras, uh, to the Svalbard, the official name of, of uh, what we in Belgium called Spitsbergen.

And so I saw this, uh, little construction, uh, upon landing, uh, on, on, on that mountain flank. And I was like, what is that? It's like a triangle. It's something artificial. So I started to ask the bus driver, that was the first person he's a local and bus drivers, they really know they have a network. So I'm like, what is that?

Oh, it's the Global Seed Vault, he said. The global what? The Global Seed Vault. So I started to look it up these days, the week that I was there while taking photos, of course. And I was like, this is such a fascinating place. I never heard of it. And it's, uh, it was constructed in 2008. They only spent two years to build this million or perhaps a billion dollar construction.

And the, the real goal of the Global Seed Vault is to preserve, to conserve the world's biodiversity. So our food supply for future generations, this is the, the, the backup vault. It's our, our life insurance for humanity. So it's a facility built by the Norwegian government. With some extra fan, uh, external finances as well, but you know, this is, uh, these are details.

It's a facility 130 meters, um, above sea level so that it can cope with rising sea levels. And also 100, 130 meter insights, the permafrost. So they drilled a hole, a tunnel in the permafrost in this mountain, in the high Arctic, they had to adapt the decks of the ships, to bring on the drilling heads from mainland Norway.

And then they have carved out three rooms deep inside the mountain. And these rooms, they safeguard now the world's biggest collection of food crops. And so the, the goal is that there are a lot of gene banks, genetic banks that, um, Yeah, banks, they call it banks,

[00:05:39] Mizter Rad: gene banks. Yeah, that store our, our, our gene, let's say, backup kind of.

[00:05:45] Christian Clauwers: Yes, not only store, they do research. And it's really like, uh, uh, you can say management of sovereign biodiversity. So within your country's borders, there are countries, institutions, NGOs that occupy themselves with, uh, with studying biodiversity. And so the, the global seed vault has a purpose of being a backup of all these existing backups.

So this is the biggest collection in the world. When they built it, the total capacity was aimed for 4. 5 million seats. And they now have 1. 2 million seats. So two rooms. Yeah. The second, there are three rooms. The first room is entirely full. When I was there, it was 2014, so I had to, to return.

[00:06:28] Mizter Rad: So wait, wait. Lemme jump in. Lemme jump in there because it's not easy to get in there. But you were able to go in there and take photos, is that correct?

[00:06:36] Christian Clauwers: That's correct, yeah. And the, the truth is that it's the most inaccessible room in the world. So it started with the bus driver telling me, this is the Global Seed Vault, and forget it, you, you won't be able to enter.

I'm like, yeah, but still, you know, I, I want to enter, I mean, I want to document this. I want to have a look. And so it took me, uh, this is the, the true story. It took me eight months, took me four countries and three continents calling, emailing. Having a lot of patience. recalling, sending a mail again. Just to find one of five persons in 2014 that owns a key. That had the key.

[00:07:11] Mizter Rad: Okay. So the first five people own a key of this vault?

[00:07:14] Christian Clauwers: Yeah. And actually, today it's actually less than five. They told me it's three today. So, yeah. So, and, uh, yeah, the, the truth is I, I, I was just a passionate photographer. I, uh, I was an art dealer that those days, so I had an art gallery. But I, i, um, my, my cause was genuine.

So the moment I convinced that one person that owns a key, my true motivation was, I want to document this and I want to tell the world about it. Because this facility is so special and so quintessential. It's so, uh, it's, it's just, you know, it's a place that really. Yes, very important. And it really speaks to your imagination, of course.

So everything really started inside. So eight months later. So that person has told me, okay, you just keep it as a secret. This is a condition you don't tell anyone. And I can hold secrets. So I was a quiet for months. Uh, took that one flight. Met that person in Tromsø. The last stop over before you go to Svalbard, Longyearbyen.

And, uh, so there he came to me. I never, I didn't have the face. I didn't know who he was. So he said, you must be Christian. I said, yes, my name is Christian. Hi, nice to meet you. And so then he said, okay, when everyone gets out of the plane and believe me, 2014, the amount of, uh, you can say Arctic tourism was barely existing.

So this is really different than what we see today. It's maybe one 10th of the amount of people that will now wait for their luggage in the airport. So anyway, so in 2014, that person told me you just wait until everyone leaves that airport. It's a small airport. And then we will start to unload the boxes, the sealed boxes from the plane. And we will put them through the scanner, the x rays. So we have to be sure we can't open the box, because it's a deposit principle. So all these institutions and countries that deposits inside the global seed vault, it's with a contract. As if your jewelry is in the safe vault in the bank, physically.

It's the same principle, which means the bank can never open your box. This is, this is by contract. It's your lock or box that you or vault that you're by contract renting from the bank. So that's the same principle.

[00:09:27] Mizter Rad: Okay.

[00:09:28] Christian Clauwers: And so this, yeah, yeah, go ahead. Sorry. I keep on telling it.

[00:09:32] Mizter Rad: No, no, go ahead.

[00:09:32] Christian Clauwers: So this is a, this is where the magic happens.

So I actually went inside two times. That's what I never tell when I give lectures. So I went inside before the, the, let's call it official deposit, but there were like three people and I was one of them. I went inside upon arrival. And then the next day we inventorized all the seeds like taxonomy of the biodiversity and everything.

So they had to be inputted in a computer. And then they, have put the boxes, the sealed boxes on, on the, on the racks, on the, uh, corresponding numbers, of a system, they, they have to manage...

[00:10:08] Mizter Rad: is this, the first time a photographer went into the vault?

[00:10:11] Christian Clauwers: To be honest, I think I might have been the first one.

Yes. I have only met one person that has been inside. And that was a very special person as well. Can't tell you names, I'm sorry, just for privacy reasons. But as far as I'm concerned, there are only a few people on this planet that have been inside. There is, however, a delegation of the United Nations. And even from that delegation, so the thing is that the United Nations, a crop diversity trust, they also, monitor the, how to say that they, they kind of inspect the vault. Because they're, they are a stakeholder to the extent that they help with logistics worldwide, especially institutions that don't really have the financial means to bring in their seeds.

So they are like an active player inside the whole depositing management. So there is a delegation, and I went actually also this year, before the trip where we met in the Arctic World Archive. In February I was also in Svalbard, because there was a 15th year anniversary of the Global Seed Vault.

So I interviewed Sandra Borch, which is the minister of agriculture of Norway. And I, met the whole entire delegation of the United Nations. And I understood that even those delegates, you know, only a few of them can enter. So it's really, really, it's, it's so inaccessible. Even the prime minister or even the, the, the crown prince, let's say, or the king of Norway, they, they're not allowed to enter.

It's, it's really amazing.

[00:11:43] Mizter Rad: That's great. That's great that you had that access.

So what's that? Let's say, what's that at your beginning, the beginning of your career as a photographer, as an explorer, as a storyteller?

[00:11:55] Christian Clauwers: Exactly. Exactly. This is really where everything happened and changed for me. So just imagine you're inside this mountain and you start to almost like meditation.

You know, you start to realize that you're inside the mountain, a tunnel, a high tunnel in the Arctic, in the high Arctic. Duck to save all the biodiversity of the world because it's in decline. Species are dying out. Fauna is dying out. Flora is following are also plant species are dying out. And so also our food supply is getting much more poor and it's getting very, very quick.

So I realized being in that vault, this huge conflict between men and nature. And this is really the starting point, still. Up till today, the starting point in my photography and all the projects that I initiate, they have all, they all have to do with this conflict between man and nature.

[00:12:45] Mizter Rad: So what do you mean with the conflict between man and nature, man and nature? Can you be more specific?

[00:12:53] Christian Clauwers: Yes, it has to do with how we see ourselves in relation to nature. How do we relate to nature? So I learned from Sami and Inuit, Arctic indigenous people, that they see their role as a, they are a species just like other species.

And they see themselves as part of an entire system. They see themselves as a part of nature, which is... Completely different than let's say half of the world's population who lives now in cities. We kind of lost that connection. So if we, if we're hungry, we go to the supermarket, we buy whatever we want or whatever that our, that our wallet would allow us, and we really don't think about the, about the source and the resource anymore. We just buy it and that's it.

So we're our economical systems, let's call it capitalism, but okay. I'm not criticizing Catholic capitalism or maybe a little bit. But this, this system is, is not, uh, not following the huge increase of world's population. And the fact that the resources are limited on our planet. And also space is limited. And also water supply is limited. Everything has limits.

Actually, I'm, uh, Well, I have to say that I'm a good friend of, uh, you can, yeah, well, the person in charge of the club of Rome, I, I won't, uh, uh, you know, tell names now. And the Club of Rome, they published this book in the seventies: The Limits to Growth. And I read that book when I was...

[00:14:24] Mizter Rad: what's the name of the book?

[00:14:27] Christian Clauwers: Limits to growth, limits to growth. It's quite a famous book and they actually forecasted everything that is happening now. But the thing is that in the eighties, well, besides the oil crisis and everything, this is more like geopolitics, but people were like, Oh, these, these people, they're, they're like doom thinkers, you know, they're so negative, but all they were saying in like, as a summary was that there is a to our economic growth. Because we just can't in an efficient way, we can't, we can't reach all those mouths that needs food. We, we just, we just don't have the resources on our planet. Our planet doesn't have the capacity to follow with our, with our economic model. And the growth behind it. And especially the drive towards making profits in everything. So...

[00:15:16] Mizter Rad: so when you go around, when you go around the world and meet all these indigenous people or the Inuits that you were talking about. These are tribes or parts of the population that as far as I understand are more connected to nature and are, like you said directly involved in maybe the food they grow...

What have you seen around the world in your travels? What exactly have you learned from them? And how do you think we can apply that to, if we can, with our lifestyle, to our Westernized way of living?

[00:15:51] Christian Clauwers: Well, maybe it's just wishful thinking or idealism or call it whatever.

But when I was in the Pacific region, just to put it to perspective, what I just told you about the Arctic indigenous people in the Pacific region, people believe that you borrow from nature. So this is...

[00:16:08] Mizter Rad: where we're exactly in the Pacific region. Please give me, give me, give me examples.

[00:16:13] Christian Clauwers: Exactly. So now I'll talk about Polynesia.

Let's, let's say Hawaii, for example, everyone knows Hawaii. Yeah. The correct name is Hawaii with a V and then they say Hawaii, Hawaii. So the people, the indigenous people of Hawaii before the Americans took, took over, uh, uh, but I don't want to talk politics here. They really see nature as something they borrow from.

So it's like they're, they, they have this unlimited grace or gratefulness towards nature. And whenever they kill an animal or they take a tree or, you know, they take something from nature to eat, this is most obvious reason, they would do something in return. So they would plant something. They would give something back to nature.

So they, they see it really like it's a checks and balances. You know, you take something, you have to give something back. If we go to a different region in the Pacific, for example, to Melanesia. Melanesia is a, if you look at on the map, it's like the Southwest corner, um, of the Pacific region. So it's, uh, starts at New Zealand.

And then if you go up to Philippines, so Solomon Islands and Papua New Guinea, um, this and Vanuatu, this is Melanesia. If you go to this region, people don't even know the concept of ownership. They don't like owning land does not exist. Just imagine.

[00:17:35] Mizter Rad: So they don't, sorry, sorry to interrupt, but they don't believe in it or they have, or they actually don't know it.

[00:17:45] Christian Clauwers: They, they don't know it because they didn't, why would they, I mean, they it's... it's a whole different evolution that they witnessed. So they didn't have an industrial revolution. They didn't have Christianity or any type of religion, let's call it influence or dominance. However you see it. So these people, especially Melanesia, this is very tribal.

These are tribal cultures. So tribal is really like you have a tribe leader, mostly, well, it's almost in all cases, a male, a man. And then this tribe leader, he's, you can say that the chief or the boss. So I'll give you a very real example. So how I visited a lot of these inaccessible and very extremely remote islands without airports was by sailing out.

So I joined for four months with three in total. So a couple and a me. I joined the sailing vessel. Trip four months in, in this region. And whenever we arrived at an island, we knew that we just had to wait. And sometimes it was a day, a night or a day and a night together. Until the tribe leader would come with a canoe with someone rowing for him.

And then without speaking English, He made like it's non verbal communication. You just have to look into his eyes and read his face and try to understand what this man wants or what he's saying. And we, we kind of quickly understood that we should give something as a gesture of, of honor. like, you know, a gift.

So we gave rope. Rope is something very useful. They can use it to tie a goat or to repair a boat or whatever. But in the end, we didn't have the rope anymore. So I gave like a t shirt and then I made this one photo of a chief leader with a, with a hat. Like an American baseball cap, you know, or how do you call it and a t shirt.

And so we were laughing because we were like, Oh, there must have been some American sailors before us. Right. You know? So yeah, this is it's interesting.

[00:19:41] Mizter Rad: So, so this communication that you have with this people that are inaccessible and with very little contact with the Western world or the rest of the world.

It's mainly through gestures, through offerings, through non viral communication, et cetera. This is fascinating.

[00:19:59] Christian Clauwers: And it, it, it really puts things into perspective because we get, we are being born in a system. We're being born in, in a city, a society, a whole system, political, social, economical system. And some, like a lot of people, I'm not judging them, but a lot of people are not capable to think outside that box. And outside that box is also reality and it's maybe the only way that we can save humanity. I really think that indigenous people, whether island Pacific Islanders or Arctic indigenous people. Or any type of indigenous people. And they're really minorities, believe me, they really have knowledge.

They have knowledge that we can use even to cope climate change. Don't ask me for an example, but these people, they are really so close to nature. They understand nature. They read nature, not only weather systems, but the whole you know, agricultural, the soil, the biodiversity, that they're really much more inside that system where we are just external players on top of, of a pyramid dominating everything. Even nature. At least that, that is an illusion.

And this will, you know, there is always a thing that I, that I used to say, which is. It will not be nature that will be destroyed in the end. It will be us. You know, we're destroying ourselves. We're committing suicide. We're committing ecocide. But in the end, it's humanity as a species that will, you know, be wiped out.

[00:21:25] Mizter Rad: This is very interesting. What you just said that is we're committing suicide. And we're killing ourselves because sometimes I think that, you know, when someone tells me we're killing nature, we're killing the plants, we're killing the planet. Yes, we are killing the planet at the same time. I think that this is a very, you know, I'm not again, the same as you said, I'm not trying to blame or judge anyone here, but basically, this is what we say most of the times that is: we are thinking that we're superior in a way that nature or the force of nature, the force of the planet. But in reality, we're such, we're such a small little part of the whole ecosystem and the force of nature is, is just, it's just much stronger in a way...

[00:22:17] Christian Clauwers: Exactly and the real, yeah, exactly.

It's, it's nature that will win. That is the short summary. It's nature that will win and whatever people or like whatever the concept might be of men that really can take and just take and take and take even more because that's the problem in modern societies. I don't use the word West anymore. I use the word modern societies, right?

In modern societies, people just take from nature. As if nature has infinite resources. As if, as if the soil on our planet is, is unlimited. As if the biodiversity is just like a pool where we can just take whatever. And this is, this is the misconception. Totally. Nothing is sustainable. If you, if you consider the way we fish.

It's it's it's terrible. It's just terrible. We just take and species are dying out. And that's it. They don't return. That's also what I understood inside the Global Seed Vault. You see seeds. I saw seed crops that already doesn't. They don't exist anymore in the in the natural habitat. So and and luckily there is such a thing as a Global Seed Vault.

The importance was was proven already. Is proven already. Because they use already extinct seed crops to make other existing crops more resistant. This is genetical manipulation. It's a different conversation, but already, you know, it's all in nature. The whole code. Everything is in nature and we're just part of it.

And that's again, again, really a statement. So what I'm saying is they use already extinct seeds to genetically manipulate existing seeds that are still there. Outside the vault. On natural soil. To make them more resistant for floods. For droughts and so on. So it's, it's all this genetic...

[00:24:01] Mizter Rad: yeah. These genetically modified seeds are also stored in the vault?

[00:24:06] Christian Clauwers: No, that's a very good question. And I asked that question as well to the man that actually came up with the idea, And convinced the Norwegian government. And he said, no, all seats, all seats in the vault are natural seed crops. But they use the, the thing is, it's all in the DNA code.

It's all in the, in the genetic strings and the genetic codes inside every species, whether it's a plant, whether it's an animal. So once a plant or an animal dies out, it extincts. Well, it's, it's gone. It's gone forever. If it's death, it's death. It doesn't come back. So this is, this is really, uh, something to consider.

[00:24:43] Mizter Rad: I understand that there are some scientists in the U. S. trying to bring back the mammoth and the dodo and a lot of animals that are extinct. I'm not sure how they do it. I want to interview one of the guys, so I will learn about it, but...

[00:24:57] Christian Clauwers: yeah, that's interesting. I certainly want to hear that podcast.

And so you can ask me my opinion about it, but normally I'm not telling my opinion. I'm just telling you facts. So I think it's well, I think it's rather strange, but I can't know because of uh, lack of knowledge to which extent this might be useful to maybe save the species we're making extinct now.

So that is the question.

[00:25:21] Mizter Rad: Do you sometimes think that, Because I talked to a lot of scientists and maybe some people also in the longevity space, synthetic biology space, where you could say that we humans are kind of playing with nature. That we're playing to be gods. That we're playing, like you were saying with the genetic code, manipulating it and editing it.

And, and so there's a lot of ethical question marks around this. And it's a lot of criticism and pushback, but the field seems to be growing and there's a lot of funding coming into it. And a lot of scientists are very excited about this. Do you have any opinion on this? Because I can't imagine, I mean, you have, you sort of, you live, like you said, you live in the modern world, but you also have these opportunities to go and visit the aboriginal humans in, in these islands in Melanesia, but also in the poles. And so you have sort of the connection or the contact with both ways of looking at life, maybe.

Do you have any opinion on this way the modern world seems to be moving into a sort of synthetic life kind of thing, if you could call it like that?

[00:26:36] Christian Clauwers: Definitely. If you ask my opinion, it's always easy. I have, I have my opinion on all these topics, but remember, it's just an opinion next to 7 billion other opinions.

But the thing is, what is the fact is that we entered, uh, the anthropo, the anthropocene. Which is an era where human beings are capable of disrupting whole ecosystems. Existing cycles and natural phenomenon. The biodiversity that is in decline. We're talking about the sixth mass extinction. And I think all, all these eugenics and and improvement of genetic codes and manipulation and synthetic solutions, it's frightening.

It's really frightening. Think of AI for me, it's the same, it's the same how do you say that? Like, you know, it's the same type of category that it's like. Yeah, category. Thank you. It's the same category, but This is only disrupting more, that's my opinion. So, we have to go, we have to look back to nature to see that relation between man and nature.

We have to re... Understand it. And we kind of lost it. We lost it entirely because we get rich from it. Our social benefits, sorry, not social, economical benefits are dependent off of the whole system. So we need systematic change. But how can you change the system when the people that can do it, let's say leaders, whether economical from the industry or political leaders, when they only benefit from it.

I mean, that is a problem. It's, it starts with the self, the, the, the ego, the ego of man, perhaps. And the opportunity, and, and well. Just it, it makes me sad, you know, but, uh,

[00:28:20] Mizter Rad: yeah, I know it's a, it's a complicated, uh, it's a complicated situation. However there seems to be, also in the industry because I think the industry, corporations take a big role in what's happening in the planet, and also in our culture, the way we think, the way we relate to nature and to the rest of us. Do you think there is something positive happening within the industry, within the corporate world, all these initiatives for being carbon neutral or being more socially responsible, environmentally friendly.

I don't know. I don't know why you laugh.

[00:29:01] Christian Clauwers: No, no, I'm not laughing. I was coughing. Ah, okay, sorry. Yes, and I'm happy you bring this up because...

[00:29:07] Mizter Rad: I wonder what you think about this because I have my opinion on that, but you're the guy behind the mic and I want to know your opinion.

[00:29:15] Christian Clauwers: My opinion is that certainly good things are happening and faster and faster also growing countries.

Let's still call them growing countries like China. They're actually way ahead in many of these technologies. And so positive things are certainly happening. The question is, and I don't want to be negative, will it be fast enough and will it be really to an extent that seven million sorry, 7 billion people, which will be eight and a nine and so on, I mean, world's population is increasing systematically. It's really exponential. So the problem is can we just, will we be on time? I, if you, well, I'm not going to ask the questions that. Sometimes people, well, just let me, let me ask myself the question, people ask me, Christian, are we still on time?

I think it's beyond 12 o'clock already. I think it's, I think we really are too late and it's now about mitigation. And to see which consequences will, will come to us. We can't forecast many of these consequences, so we just have to cope with them. We have to mitigate. We have to, to adapt to the, to the situation.

Um, and last but not least, we always have to be positive. How can I do what I do when I don't believe in the fact that all this, you know, is still maybe not manageable entirely, but always, you know, fight, just don't give up. That's the only way that I got in that seed vault anyway, so you just don't give up.

[00:30:44] Mizter Rad: So, right. You need to be persistent. However, I think that I don't know what you think about this, but a lot of times when you, when you turn on the TV and watch the news, or even on those communication threads on WhatsApp or telegram, there is so much stuff that seems so negative and like the end of the world is coming.

And I wonder if This brings the mood down and this persistence that we all

[00:31:11] Christian Clauwers: definitely have, yeah, climate fatigue. The media plays a dirty role, unfortunately. So what I tried to do, I tried to cope with that. So I, I raise awareness. You, you witnessed one of my presentations. So I, I document what is, what is happening.

I'm documenting impacts, climate change impact. I'm documenting how people all over the world are trying to cope.

[00:31:33] Mizter Rad: How do you document that? Actually, I want you to go deeper into this. How do you, how do you document so people understand exactly how you do that?

[00:31:41] Christian Clauwers: Yes. Thanks for that question. So I'm, I'm, uh, well, I use image.

Image is an important tool. Why? Because image is universal. You don't need a language. To read image, you just look at it and an image tells you, it gives you information directly by what you see, what you deduct from what is on that photo. But also by emotions that an image can evoke. This is also a message that I can carry.

And I am more than a photographer. In essence, I'm a photographer because I make images. But what I do is I raise awareness and I have a specific mission, which I tell you a bit later, but the general goal is to raise awareness for different audiences, youth, universities, policy level. In the industry.

And of course trying to educate also. Trying to bring something to people. Trying to show what, how this looks like this impact. But also the last and really, well, in many ways the inaccessible places that are really pure. There are still some pure places on this planet, which is very difficult. Like in Île de la Possession, for example, Possession Island. Which is part... this is the French overseas, the French Austral and Antarctic overseas territories in the South Indian Ocean.

The only way to get there is by a French scientific vessel called the Marion Dufresne. The Marion Dufresne in English. It's a French. Sounds nicer in French. Exactly. Like, now I have to, you know, anglicize, how do you say that?

Yeah, yeah. Okay. So. Yeah. And this is completely commissioned by the, by the French government. So all the finances is just the French government. So when I, when I went in 2019, I was there with the prefects and the prefect is the, the, the number one, the general administrator. She was a lady and she's their directed appointed, directly appointed by the president of France. She was also on board to let's call it: inspect her territories. So it was really interesting. So you were there with...

[00:33:48] Mizter Rad: Is this in Antarctica?

[00:33:49] Christian Clauwers: No, it's sub Antarctic territory, which means it's basically a thousand kilometers more North. Okay. So these are the sub Antarctic islands and all around also in the Pacific. Also around, well, of course, around Antarctica. So South Georgia, Gulf Island, the Tristan da Cunha group is like between the sub Antarctic and the subtropical islands. So this is more North already, but then you have the Crozet archipelago where Ile de la Possession, Possession Island is one of them.

And then you have also Kerguelen, for example, Kerguelen Island. That's also one that I documented.

[00:34:21] Mizter Rad: When you documented, so islands, sorry. When you documented, when, when you say I documented, you mean you took photos, you don't there's no one living there... Okay.

[00:34:32] Christian Clauwers: These are uninhabited islands. But what I do when I take photos, I, I have a project in mind.

A project for me means a series of, uh, exhibitions worldwide actually. So I now talk about an exhibition in Hawaii already. So I'm crossing the border of Europe. I'm now exhibiting in Europe, in Venice, and I just, uh, finished an exhibition in Denmark. And, and so on. There will be, uh, many more coming in France also, I exhibited. Now I'm going to the US. So exhibitions is one means... so... showing photos. A selection of photos that tell the story of an island. Like photo documentation. Like it's, it's a way of journalism, maybe, although I don't like to call myself a journalist at all. Because that that's different. So I'm also entirely, like completely neutral. But it's also the information. The story behind. And that's the second pillar you can say of how I raise awareness, which is lecturing. I lecture by showing my photos. My slideshows, they only contain photos, no texts. And I have a story, the story behind every, each image, which is sometimes like the one you followed is it's a very general story. It's really a story about Pacific Islanders, for example, in, in, in general.

And the third thing is making books. Although in the digital world, it's said that it's done, you know, it's over with the paper medium. I completely disagree. I really like the old fashioned book where you smell the paper, you know, and the way the way it feels. The texture of a book. A book is something that, that lasts, people put it on the table and now have a big coffee table book that I will launch the end of this year.

It's a huge book with a presidential forward. And this is a book that people will put on their table so that visitors and people and family can enjoy. And they will look at it and they will open and they will touch it. And that's exactly what I want.

[00:36:25] Mizter Rad: Yeah. And so this is, this is fascinating.

I think that the, this ability or possibility of being able to travel with ships that can access certain places or people that have the permission from the president in the case of the French island that you just mentioned. And going there and taking photos and documenting and then being able to bring that back to the modern world. And presenting to the people to, to us, to the modern citizens, what you've encountered there is like the role of a expeditionary, back in the times.

[00:37:01] Christian Clauwers: It's, it's important. It's important

[00:37:03] Mizter Rad: by the king or by the queen and stuff.

[00:37:05] Christian Clauwers: It's, it's important to start to tell a story of people that can't bring the story here. I mean, we, what do you know about the Pacific? I mean, I see that all the time. I would love to be, I would love to go there. Exactly, Mario. These are untold stories.

These are stories that need to be documented, that need to last. That's why I'm very happy I also deposited in that World Archive, because it's important that it, somewhere, it will be there for future generations. I mean, the two deposits that I did, one of them was the Pacific Project, because the atolls and islands, they will not exist anymore in 80 years.

They won't reach the 22nd century. Which is there, for example, Tuvalu. Tuvalu is completely disappearing.

No, well, next in the Pacific. It's hard to say next. I mean, it's, uh, yeah, it's, it's more or less in the middle of the Pacific. So it's more East than, uh, Vanuatu. Okay. Yeah. Vanuatu is, is, is like you, you can say the border between Melanesia and Polynesia, so, yeah. Yeah. So Tuvalu, Kiribati also, uh, to a certain extent, Solomon islands. Nauru, another one. These islands are doomed to disappear.

They, they, they just don't, they have three meters as a highest point. Just imagine, just imagine three meters. Look up to your ceiling. That's going to be two 40 or something, you know, so count 60 centimeter on. On top. And that's your highest point of your country, your entire country. And you're in the middle of the big blue.

And you know what? Polynesian people in the old days, they used the stars. Astro navigation to reach, to, to spread out, to reach all these islands. And they see the ocean as something that connects them. They see it as a positive thing. The ocean is communication for them. It's, it's the outreach. It's the way to the, to the world for them. Because they're stuck on an island basically.

[00:38:58] Mizter Rad: Right.

[00:38:58] Christian Clauwers: And now. It's, it's a bit of a mess. Like subconsciously, the collective subconscience, it becomes a threat because the ocean levels are rising. They see already the consequences of acidification of the dead zones, so a lack of fish, even for them. They're not overfishing, but fish are just dying out or disappearing.

Everything is changing. Coral reefs, they're so harm, harmful for temperature rises. But coral reefs are the basic of, of, of the basis of, of ecosystems. If, if the corals disappear, you have so many coastal fish that disappear. And believe me, in the high seas, you don't really see a lot of fish. All these fish, like, I don't know the numbers, maybe 80% are really in coastal waters, shallow waters and coral reefs where they can hide, where they can, you know, live. So...

[00:39:46] Mizter Rad: Have you heard about Jason deCaires Taylor?

[00:39:49] Christian Clauwers: No. Not yet.

[00:39:51] Mizter Rad: He's an artist. That basically builds coral reefs in land, and then brings them down into the ocean and the bottom of the ocean. And then with time, they become natural coral reefs proof. This is proof. He has done it several times in different places. And life starts flourishing once again in the area that maybe had coral reefs before and for X or Y reason all that life died now he brought it back with that.

[00:40:21] Christian Clauwers: So you see, this is, this is wonderful that the world is still of people still full of people, full of great initiative and positivism. And that's what we need. We also need the investments and the technology and the structural and systematic change in the industry, but throughout society. But let me point out this:

every person counts, every single person counts. If I can inspire one person in an audience of 100, I will be happy already because I know that that person will think different about his relation to nature. And this is really what I also try to do. I try to inspire people to such a way that they think when they buy something, that they think about their position, you can say, or relation into, into the natural world.

Uh, so this, this is really important that it starts with everybody, so literally every body, every person can change something. And a lot of people together, they make a big change, but the small change is also significant. You see, that's really important.

[00:41:26] Mizter Rad: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, definitely.

Definitely. I agree. And when you go to these places for example the islands, the French island that you were talking about, or Kerguelen and stuff like that, these are inhabited places, correct?

[00:41:39] Christian Clauwers: No, uninhabited, completely uninhabited. The only species, well, there are a lot of species, but the main species are penguins, the king penguins.

And the king ones, the kings are the second largest. They look a little bit like the emperor. But the emperor, they live deep South on the Antarctic continents. So you have to go beyond a certain latitude. I don't know by heart, but they are a bit more South than what most people would visit if they say I've been to Antarctica.

[00:42:05] Mizter Rad: Have you been to Antarctica by the way?

[00:42:09] Christian Clauwers: Yes, I have.

[00:42:10] Mizter Rad: So how is that? Tell me more about that because this is fascinating for me.

[00:42:15] Christian Clauwers: Well, this is like a non spoiled world, which puts really everything into perspective. Because here you see a whole, an entire continent where officially by treaty, nobody lives.

You have a lot of scientific research stations. I visited four of them. One of them was the largest owned by the US. It's McMurdo Station. The only way to get there is you, you put your ship, like you park your ship in the pack ice. That's really how to put it. So it bumps into the, into the pack ice and it keeps on the engine so that it doesn't move, you know, and then you take a helicopter, you have to fly like 20 minutes and that's the way to get there.

The other way to get there is to land by a plane, but then your ticket will be like 30,000 euros.

[00:42:54] Mizter Rad: Wow.

[00:42:55] Christian Clauwers: You probably come from from New Zealand or from Tasmania, which is Australia. That's the only way to get there.

[00:43:00] Mizter Rad: Where do you. So, so, okay. Two ways. I understand one by ship and the other one by plane. But where do you land if you go by plane?

Is there like a, like a city or like a town?

[00:43:12] Christian Clauwers: No, on the ice. And that's a good question. And to make things more clear, I'm talking specifically about the Ross Sea. The Ross Sea is really the most unspoiled part of Antarctica. This is the one that you have to reach from... ross named after James Ross, the captain.

So it's Ross with double ROSS. The Ross Sea. So you have to have a map of Antarctica, which is really confusing because, of course, we think about the sphere where you have the equator in the middle and then North Pole up and South Pole down. So it's really hard when you turn that sphere up and you look straight at the South point.

So the geographical South point is the middle of your map. Then what is North? I mean, everything. Theoretically from that point is north, right? So, so it's really confusing. You have to think in the, in the lab, in the longitudes, them like the Greenwich meridian, you have to think in meridians, like, okay, what is the Western?

What is the Eastern hemisphere? So that's the way to navigate. I mean,

[00:44:06] Mizter Rad: okay. But so how, how far down have you gone into the Antarctica?

[00:44:13] Christian Clauwers: 78. 5 degrees. I think, yeah, 70, 78. 5 degrees. That's pretty south.

[00:44:22] Mizter Rad: The lowest point is what?

[00:44:24] Christian Clauwers: I don't know, 60, 60 or something that's a peninsula where 95% of these problematic, huge cruise ships are going and then these people, they don't even know where they are.

I mean, I'm not judging, but my point is that a lot of people go there because they have money and because they want to say, or they want to see it. But they have a lack of knowledge or interest and that's just making me sad. I believe if you really want to go there, try to contribute with something. By raising awareness. By just telling what you saw and trying to inspire others, you know, that, that, that I'm telling you my opinion again.

So that's not my goal of when I give a lecture, not at all. This is just my opinion. So...

[00:45:02] Mizter Rad: yeah, no, no, but it is important. I think that if, if it's trash tourism it doesn't. It doesn't make sense. In my opinion as well,

[00:45:10] Christian Clauwers: to answer your initial question. What does it do? This Antarctic continent? It's so vulnerable.

And that's really what you see. You see something that is pristine. That is pure, you know. That is unspoiled and untouched. Where a human beings have not you know, F U C K E D up, they just, yeah, I wasn't sure to pronounce it, but okay. You will put a beep over it.

[00:45:40] Mizter Rad: No, no, there's no censoring here.

But listen, listen, um, why, I mean, in a way, this is, uh, sort of like a hopeful situation in a way. Because we are protecting the Antarctica for the future in a way. Like if it's so pristine and untouched. So I want to know two things: one, one is why is it so pristine and touch and unaccessible?

And two, isn't that good that we have that as a, you know, when you have a savings account and you have like a, like a, like a like a pocket or like a sub account with your actual emergency money. This is like Antarctica to me. It's like that emergency pocket. Emergency sub account. That if everything goes to shit, then we have that.

Is that the way also scientists see this or why is this so protected?

[00:46:37] Christian Clauwers: I will give you my opinion. First, my opinion is that this is a complete wrong way to view it because you're thinking exactly like what I said earlier, like Earth is just there for us to, to, to be used like to, to rape. I'm sorry for my words, but you know, you have this Greek myth where um, Zeus as a Taurus, is raping mother earth, right?

If I'm not mistaken, yeah, yeah. Well, in a way we are just using it as, as if it's infinite. So the thing is that it is first of all, protected because humans have never settled there. Well, never, you know, they actually never, they have never settled there because it's so wild. It's so extreme. It's actually the driest, the coldest, also the highest continent in average altitude of the mountain range.

Uh, the mountains. Yeah. And the thing is that polar regions, both the Antarctic continent, which is a continent, it's, it's lands... land with a massive pack ice, uh, ice sheets on it. And also the North pole, which is not land. It's you can dive underneath it. It's just the, the, the eyes that is shrinking.

Unfortunately it's pack ice. It's sea ice. The problem is. These are regulating, both North and South Pole, are regulating our climate. The ice has a function. The function is that it has to reflect the sunlight. So it keeps the earth cool, both North and South. You can call it the air conditioning of our planet.

And this is very essential because it's, it's the regulator also to keep everything in balance. So at the, at the equator, technically you have the hottest and the more humid parts of the world because some, the sun is the closest to our earth. And it's a global system where the ocean water warms up, heats up and ascends.

And then, you know, circles creating high, high pressures, low pressures so that you have air circulation. Then you have the rotation of the earth with the Coriolis effect. So in the Northern and the Southern hemisphere, it turns in a different way. And you have a whole system, a climate system, all these, you can call it microclimates like, you know, the weather system above Europe and then the other weather system above Russia, for example.

They're all interrelated. And the big picture tells you that the North and the South Pole, the ice, these are regulators. When the ice is gone, it's not only a loss of our fresh water supply, but it's a loss of what keeps our earth livable, to be honest. So this is really the most, one of the most important tipping points, you can call them.

So the Greenlandic ice cap, another one, Greenland is melting. It's going so fast. This is it's alarming. It's really alarming.

[00:49:19] Mizter Rad: So is that the reason why you're focused on on the polar regions as well? Because you mentioned in your biography or your profile description better said that right now.

At least currently you're more focused on those regions.

[00:49:34] Christian Clauwers: Yes. For me, it's also a passion for water in general. Water is the only element that can be gased when it vaporizes and you know, can be ice and can be fluid. It's just so fascinating. It's always in transition, always different. It's almost, almost like meditating, uh, as a Buddhist, you know, all things must pass. Water is not, is never the same. It's, it's, it's something that fascinates me and I just love to be on water as well. And polar regions, why do they fascinate me? Besides the fact that I'm in love with water in every, in every shape of water, in every, uh, uh, uh, substantial, uh, form.

Thank you. It is because the polar regions, both North and South are also the least inhabited and the purest. And now the conflict is, and this is really a paradox. These are the regions that are the most impacted. Take, for example, Svalbard. You just returned from Svalbard. Svalbard is warming up almost four times faster than anywhere else in the world.

This is the place where impact is showing itself the hardest. I come there now 10 years from 2013. Now it's 2023. So in 10 years, I saw huge changes. I saw glaciers that were there and now I don't see them anymore. So it's going so fast there so fast that I really wonder what will I still see in my life?

I mean,

[00:50:59] Mizter Rad: do you sometimes, do you sometimes wonder also if the climate change is a natural cycle of the planet of the earth, like look back, I don't know, 1,000; 2,000; 5,000; 100,000 years. Is there a possibility in your mind that this is, I'm not, I'm not saying we're not affecting it. I think it is obvious that with our existence and our, let's say misbehavior we are definitely affecting and probably accelerating the change of the planet. But does it go through your head ever that in any case, sooner or later, the planet is due to be transformed because of whatever cycles it goes through that maybe we're not aware of.

[00:51:45] Christian Clauwers: This is absolutely happening. There is a cyclic phenomenon, the ice ages.

We had a little ice age more recently, about I think, 800 years ago, 900 maybe. So, or 700. Um, the last big ice age was about 11, 000 years ago. So yes, it's a cyclic thing. The problem is, however, we know a lot about those eras, even when humans were still monkeys, let's say, you know, when we didn't really evaluate to the homo sapiens, we know a lot.

And we know now that the speed, the acceleration is alarming. So the, the, the acceleration of the decline, let's say of biodiversity, for example, they, they, they name it the sixth mass extinction where. The fifth one was the one where dinosaurs died out most probably because of a meteorite, something external exoplanet, planetic, or how to call that coming from space.

So that's, that's also why you can name it an anthropogen or a sorry, Anthropocene. You know, it's really humans that dominate everything on every level of this planet. And we are kind of destroying the planets. But as I said before, we will destroy ourselves and a lot of species with us. It will, it will be the planet that survives in the end.

That's for sure.

[00:53:04] Mizter Rad: The planet thrives. Definitely. I could see that. I can see that. And I can agree with that. You're saying now that we're like in control. It seems to us that we are in control and we are approaching it. Possibly. Hopefully not. A sixth mass, mass extinction. Is that what you said?

[00:53:24] Christian Clauwers: Well, I have to tell you I have to tell you we already are inside, in the middle of a mass extinction. If you compare, I don't know the numbers by heart, but you you and your listeners, you know If you just look it up how much how many species died out since let's say the industrial revolution and especially since the 1960s, it's, it's, it's crazy.

We, we, we have dead zones in the ocean zones of thousands of square kilometers or cubic kilometers without any life. Can you imagine? They call it dead zones?

[00:53:58] Mizter Rad: What do you mean? Have you seen them? What, what, what is this?

[00:54:01] Christian Clauwers: Yes. I sailed, I sailed through them and you don't see anything, nothing.

And then I sailed, for example, through the South Atlantic ocean spending five weeks and it was thriving of biodiversity. So that, that's a normal ocean. That's how it should be.

[00:54:16] Mizter Rad: So the South Atlantic Ocean is close to Antarctica, I'm guessing...

[00:54:21] Christian Clauwers: Yes, but this problem, this all, there is only one ocean, but we grew up with the Atlantic, the Indian ocean, the Southern ocean, the Pacific ocean, the Arctic ocean. Okay. Five oceans. They're all related.

That's the first thing. A fish can swim anywhere. So there is one body of water, which takes two thirds of our planet. And there is one ocean only. But in the, in the Atlantic ocean in general, I saw more life than in the Pacific. And I just said, Oh, this is a healthy ocean. The ocean is not healthy anymore.

You have a problem of de-oxification. So less and less oxygen. You have anthropogenic, anthropogenic carbon. And so carbon that is caused by, by humans, by global what is causing global warming, by emissions off of greenhouse gases CO2 and so on. So the problem is that the water is ... the compilation of water is is changing rapidly. And fish are dependent and all algae and species living in that water in the food triangle, they're all dependent of this chemical and physical substance of water. So physical, I just mentioned physical, water warms up, the earth is warming up. Global warming is happening. And the problem is that the, like a water molecule also gets bigger. This is one of the reasons we have rising sea levels, not only because the ice is melting, but also because the water molecules are getting larger because they need more space when they heat up, these atoms. They're shaking harder.

They expand. Thank you. Yeah.

[00:55:56] Mizter Rad: So, so you've learned a lot about how, let's say the world in terms of nature works, with your expeditions, because you also travel with a lot of scientists, is that correct?

[00:56:06] Christian Clauwers: That's correct. That's correct. I joined the Italians, the French and the Belgians, and I will soon again.

So there is...

[00:56:15] Mizter Rad: they're the ones that have the most access to these remote places because they go there and run some studies, experiments, and so on. Is that correct?

[00:56:24] Christian Clauwers: In a way you can say, yes, they have, they have access because they need to go to these places because the scientific data is very relevant.

They can compare, you know, how these are places that are, yeah, go ahead. These are places that are so remote that the human impact in theory, is the smallest. So that's why it's relevant. How can, how else can you compare when 85% of the body of water, which we call the ocean, when it's it's full of ships, and it's full of dirt, and full of plastic and so on.

So if you take samples in you know, after two weeks of sailing straight down south to a tiny spot on the map, it's so tiny, you, you barely find it in the middle of the ocean. And no, but nobody comes, comes there. Nobody goes there. It's so remote. And if you take samples there, and then you see that the same thing is happening because we have currents.

We have the atmosphere, which is always in relation with the body that we call the ocean. It's a whole system. This is what I call the beauty of nature, right? So everything is, everything is connected and everything is getting sick because of our behavior and our consumption behavior as well. Your modern baby starts.

Well, you can, you can say that, but I don't want to, uh, to, uh, you know, It's important to say that I'm not an activist, you know, that I'm just, I want to tell the story of what I see. What I document. Of the vulnerability of impact that I'm seeing. That I'm witnessing. I'm there as a witness. And also science, science and policy.

This is actually my mission statement. And that's why I had to speak in the Belgian Senate about two weeks ago, where I'm still exhibiting. So I'm also reaching out to politicians because they're the ones maybe not to initiate, and that's always what I believe. But in the end, it's really the industry, at least for Belgium.

It's the industry where the money is and where the power is. But the politicians, well, they have to at least establish a legal framework and to rethink the whole system as well, you know, they can change.

[00:58:26] Mizter Rad: How do you not become an activist after experiencing and seeing and observing everything that you have observed?

[00:58:34] Christian Clauwers: That's a great answer. And I think activism is very useful and it's very, it's necessary, but I don't see my role as an activist with the reason it's, it's twofold: first of all, I, I want to tell the story as a witness. How can I do that when I'm an activist? I will never be what you can call neutral or objective. It will be subjective. It will be through, through my my cause, right? I will tell a story with some politics behind it, for example. Or with some different messages that what I want to bring now. What I bring now is neutral to that extent that I really can exhibit in a political house like the federal parliament of Belgium. And speak for the European commission soon, because I will, I will speak for the staff of the European commission. I just, uh, in January, I was speaking for the European Environment Agency in Copenhagen. Where I also had an exhibition. So this is the EU agency. So I want to be neutral in order to fulfill my mission to bridge that gap between science and policy, because they speak different languages. Policymakers, they have strategy, strategy reports, policy reports.

They think about the next elections in a democracy. And scientists they conduct data. They want their data to be forever until they have new data that overrides the existing data. This the basis of science, like you have a theory and then you have to prove until you prove that a theory is wrong.

Right. But they come with data. They do measurements. These are, these are scientific structures, huh? So, and they, their reports are completely not matching. There is not a scientist that read an entirely IPCC report, unfortunately. There are different kinds of summaries of these IPCC reports of the United Nations.

And I wonder if even the shorter ones are read by, by politicians. So there, I, that's where I come in. I use image. I try to bridge that gap. And also to the industry more and more. I'm reaching out to, to big companies to, to try to change something.

[01:00:29] Mizter Rad: How do you actually well, maybe out of the context question, but how do you fund your expeditions?

[01:00:36] Christian Clauwers: By working really, really hard, that is really the answer, seriously.

[01:00:41] Mizter Rad: I wonder because this is not so cheap to travel to all these places.

And what I see in our society is that we really want to conquer Mars. And we want to conquer them, go to the moon again. And maybe even mine territories outside of planet earth, but, uh... and there seems to be a lot of funding for that, but I don't hear much about funding for, exploring the sub floors of the oceans. Or maybe even Antarctica. Or maybe I'm wrong, but what's your take on this?

[01:01:12] Christian Clauwers: No, you're not wrong. And the problem is that I'm not part of a big, huge organization that can really claim a lot of money from these tenders. The reality is that I'm just one man with a, with a mission, a lot of passion, some idealism, making the world... inspiring people and trying to make the world a better place through raising awareness. And trying to, you know, uh, bring the message. And the reality is that, especially in the beginning, I had to put in a lot of own funding. I was happy that I already had a gallery with a certain community, you can say, of people that love art and that came to the gallery to, during the events, the many events that are organized. And then I reached out to my clients and I said, look, this was 2017.

This is what is happening. This is what I've been doing 2014 took me three years, Mario, three years, to work out everything in detail, how to do this mission. Which is really a life's goal. It's a life's mission. I'm doing this for the rest of my life. This is what I want to do and that's what I'm doing. And I am building momentum.

So no,

[01:02:14] Mizter Rad: absolutely. I reached out. I mean, if, if you're in the Mizter Rad, if you're in the Mizter Rad Show, it's 'cause uh, you're definitely building momentum.

[01:02:21] Christian Clauwers: Thank you for that. I appreciate it. So I established my first photo exhibition and right now it's, it's, it's different. I mainly lecture and making books and writing articles and actually inspire people in different ways with workshops and so on.

So that's, that's now the focus. But in the beginning it was really like just selling my photos, you know, photos of penguins. And then I tell the story and more and more people came to me and ask, can you please lecture for us? You know, it started with Rotary Club and then more and more, even, even, uh, companies and institutions came to me.

And now it's really on a high level that I get this question. So it's, it's really nice. And it's not about the quantity. It's not about, okay, it's always nice, like, about two months and one week ago, I spoke at Echo five, which is, um, a symposium on a high level, which took place in Bergen in, uh, Norway was opened by the crown prince by the crown prince Haakon.

And then it was my turn. So I officially opened the conference. And there were 500 scientists from 60 countries. A little bit less than one third of the world's countries. It's, it's really fascinating. This was a huge audience and all these people they were apparently, uh, inspired. So that, that's, that's my mission.

That was, that was really,

[01:03:37] Mizter Rad: uh, that was a confirmation of your work. Your hard work is in the right direction, basically.

[01:03:44] Christian Clauwers: Yeah.

[01:03:44] Mizter Rad: Did you ever doubt of yourself not being a scientist in a way and not being maybe so, you know, experienced in the field and sitting in front of all the scientists and telling them what's wrong with our life, our world and showing them photos that of places that maybe some of them have seen already, but just telling the story from your perspective, what did you ever feel like fear or...

[01:04:10] Christian Clauwers: fear? No, I I'm not really fierce, fearful. So I learned while sailing in the Pacific, sometimes we didn't see land for seven days. The first lesson from my, you call, you can call him my mentor. The one that really taught me how to sail. He said, Christian, if you panic, panic slowly. And I had a different situations where I was panicking.

Imagine waves that are like 10 meters high when you're on the 30 feet, uh, catamaran, uh, at the Strait of Gibraltar. I mean, this is, this is frightening. You really think of dry bags and which camera to take and which will not, you know. This was the, the state, um, this was, this was happening. So this is one, one of these moments that I recall now where you really where I, where I really knew like, okay, I, I'm not afraid. You just have to think slowly and panic slowly, you know, just try to stay rational. The problem is when emotion or just your adrenaline is taking over. That's not a good sign. You really have to control yourself. And I think to a large extent, I have a lot of discipline and I really know how to control myself.

[01:05:15] Mizter Rad: Fascinating. How do you think this will end up, Christian?

[01:05:19] Christian Clauwers: You mean the story of man, mankind on this planet or? Huh. That's a good question. Well, they're only, uh, this, this counts. Why am I laughing? Because do you remember the photo of the duck? There is a duck in South Georgia. It's called the South Georgia pintail duck. And this duck was...

[01:05:39] Mizter Rad: sorry. Sorry. Where, where is South Georgia? So people don't get confused with Georgia, the country or Georgia, the state in the US.

[01:05:45] Christian Clauwers: Correct. South Georgia, South Georgia, and the Southern Sandwich Islands. It's a UK overseas territories in the South Atlantic ocean, a bit east of the Falkland islands.

So this is the Southern hemisphere. It's about a thousand kilometers North of the Antarctic continent. It's a fascinating place. It's actually easily accessible, but I don't want to, uh, encourage tourism at all. But you can go there easily and it's not one of these, uh, special places. Well, it is very special, but not inaccessible at all, but it's crawling of biodiversity.

It's really interesting. But it also has a lot of stories like almost every island of this, uh, world, uh, of invasive species, which are always the same: rats, mice, also cats, and also rabbits. But in this case,

[01:06:31] Mizter Rad: give me a second,

[01:06:33] Christian Clauwers: mice, mice, mice, and then also, yeah, mice, cats, cats as pets, but also deliberately introduced to cope with mice and rats, but then not thinking of the consequence that cats also eat birds. And birds were dying out because of that, getting extinct because of that.

And then the fourth are rabbits. Rabbits are really, well, they, uh, you know, they make a lot of children. So, it's a very difficult species to eradicate, um, and they eat everything. They just eat and eat and eat. Entire species die out because of invasive species. So, and in the case of South Georgia, this is one of these many examples that I also lecture about.

The Norwegian sailors that... sorry, whalers, not sailors. Norwegian whalers, they slaughtered about 150,000 whales in about 30 years. What they did is they introduced reindeer all the way from Norway. So crossing the whole Atlantic Ocean, north Atlantic, then South Atlantic's about eight, nine, 10,000 kilometers, right?

So, just imagine ships old sailing, no, actually not sailing, al already with motor, but still, you know, uh, some reindeer on the, on the deck. So you only need two or one pregnant lady with a male inside. And that's enough to disrupt an entire system. And these Norwegian whalers, they thought in, in the spirit of time, you can understand, but it's just something we can learn of. They thought if we introduce these species, they won't have natural enemies. So every time we go there. In the season to, to, to hunt the whales, we can just shoot some reindeer. And we'll, we'll have something different than whale meat. So that's what they did. But the problem was that these reindeer that were eating exactly the same food, they have the same food pattern as the pintail duck.

So at this very moment, a species either dies out, it extincts and get lost forever, right? No more genetic string, or it adapts. And in the case of the pintail duck. This duck evolved to the only omnivoric duck in the world. It's the only duck that eats meat, carcasses, dead animals, dead seals. Of course, it cannot hunt and kill a seal.

The teeth are not evolved like that, but they can eat the meat. And they do. This is the way they survived. And I think this is the answer to your question. I think the future of humanity is either we adapt. Or we get extinct. It's very simple.

[01:08:55] Mizter Rad: Wow. That's fascinating and frightening at the same time. How, how, how do you, how do you think, so do you like taking that story of the duck...

do you think at some point we'll have to, or will it happen naturally that some humans will, some, I would say some types of humans will disappear and some others will thrive because of their genetical composition now that we're talking about gene editing, or the stuff they eat, the access they have. Do you see that also in a way happening, this story that you told me about the duck? Do you think this could be something analogous to that could happen in the human species as well?

[01:09:42] Christian Clauwers: Possibly. It's a, it's a good answer. It's a good question actually. For sure, people that have Financial, economical means, and, and you know, like a more stable foundation, let's say towards health and, and so on.

Well, they will probably, in the current economic, political system, they will have means to, to come with whatever technology that might save their, their asses, so to say. And that might shoot them into space or whatever. Like Elon Musk, you know, but I don't want to mention names, too late now. But you know what I mean?

So it's, uh, it's a, it's a good question. I mean, I don't know. In the end we're one in the same species, right? It's an illusion, to think that money saves all. That is the big illusion. And we will find out soon.

[01:10:26] Mizter Rad: sometimes when I think about evolution and natural evolution. I think about just the way humans, people adapt to the environment and how our capabilities for thriving in certain conditions change throughout time.

Do you ever think that this sort of, so to say, natural evolution can be Or will be manipulated, like we were saying before, in a synthetic way, so that, again, maybe, like you said, the richest or the people with most access will be the only ones crossing, crossing the...

[01:11:01] Christian Clauwers: yeah, tell me, again, it's my opinion, but I believe the irony is that what I just said is true to a certain extent. The irony is that you and I, in modern societies. I'm sorry to quote you as well. We are not able to survive. That's just the way it is. I mean, put yourself and just put me in a jungle. I'm not sure if I will survive. Put, put, uh, you know, Pacific Islander in the jungle. Oh, he knows, he knows how to, how to catch us, how to catch an animal. He knows where, which, which mushroom to eat.

I don't know that, you know. We are, we are city people. We're modern society people. So in the end, to answer your question, The ones that might survive are actually the ones that we think are, well...

[01:11:43] Mizter Rad: less developed, so to say...

[01:11:45] Christian Clauwers: exactly, exactly. And these people that will lose their land and the Arctic regions first, you know, and, and the irony is that these people might be much stronger to survive when, when it really gets worse. Because these people understand nature.

They, they, they really do. We don't. We forgot. We lost that connection. It's all about the connection. Yeah.

[01:12:07] Mizter Rad: Interesting. Yeah. Well, Christian, I could go hours talking with you because I have so many, again, like you said, like we started the conversation so many questions based on curiosity that I have for you and, and for all the places that you have visited.

But the time is unfortunately scarce and so we would have to break it down here, but... it was a pleasure to have you here. I'm very thankful and happy that we managed to have this conversation. And I hope to see you very soon, man. Maybe in Svalbard. Yeah, me too. Maybe some, some of your expeditions, I actually, I read in one of your, I think it was your newsletter that you also have the possibility of people joining you.

Uh, correct.

[01:12:51] Christian Clauwers: Once in a while. Once

[01:12:53] Mizter Rad: in a while. How does that work? If someone is interested, how, how does that work?

[01:12:58] Christian Clauwers: Well, once in a while I decide to take people indeed. And what I want to do is I want to make them in, uh, like some sort of ambassador. I want these people to, to... I would like these people to go home with, with, with a different view, exactly a story to tell and a different, a different, uh, idea about the relation, man nature and about what they saw and about what we should preserve. Because it's so beautiful, beautiful, the natural beauty in those areas there and regions there, it's just stunning to see. To look around in the, in the Arctic and seeing a whale coming next to you. And some incredible birds and some seals and whatever. It's, it's just magical.

And once you witness this, you can just have a look and take a photo, go home and say, Oh, I've been there. Or you can go home with knowledge about what you saw. Which creatures you saw. Which ecosystem. What, what is, what is happening and what, what is, what are you seeing? Where are you? You know, show it on a map, point it on a map where you are. And tell the story of what is happening with For example, the weather patterns that are changing. Or the Gulf strip that is slowing down because of the melting glacier on Greenland and so on. Because this is all affecting a region like, for example, Svalbard, because that's one of the places where I do take people with me.

So, but this is really in, in the context of raising awareness. It's absolutely not to encourage tourism. I know it's a thin line, but I believe that if you change one person and that person changes two persons, for example, I mean, this is really, really important to do.

[01:14:32] Mizter Rad: So I tell you what, I went to Svalbard like we said already last week, we were there.

That's where we met. And it was my first time, in Svalbard. And when I was out there on a boat in the middle of the glaciers, it was incredible. The feeling that I had of I'm such a small piece of a big puzzle. And that big puzzle is the beautiful planet earth. And, and, and that realization of me being so small made me respect the planet so much more. Made me realize I'm not that important. I'm not essential for this to continue.

And so paying that, that experience made me respect more the planet and Pachamama, as we say in the Latin countries. And that was beautiful. That was incredible. That was such a life changing experience. So I guess what you want to do with your expeditions and having every now and then some people join you is also to have some sort of awakening of the city people, the modern humans.

[01:15:36] Christian Clauwers: Exactly. Remember, remember what I said a couple of minutes ago, like, well, uh, maybe half an hour ago about Inuit and their relation and Sámi and their relation. They're a part of nature.

That's what you felt. You felt reconnected to nature. And that's the reason I take people. If I can just open their eyes, nothing more. Just like encourage, not to go there. I don't want to stimulate tourism. But I want people that went there to do something with it, you know, and you are obviously so with your podcast.

So, um, yeah,

[01:16:11] Mizter Rad: that's fantastic. Well, Christian, thank you, buddy. I wish you a super happy trip back home. I guess you're traveling back home soon. Um, and, uh, well, I mean, are you or not really?

[01:16:25] Christian Clauwers: Not really, there is a, there is a lot going on now in Venice, actually in Italy. Friday, I will be in Rome. And the next Monday I will be in the people's Republic of Congo for a reforestation projects, a reforestation projects.

And then just shortly afterwards, I will go to the Arctic again. Again to Svalbard. So it's, uh, yeah, this is a different project. And I will actually guide on that one. So, yeah.

[01:16:51] Mizter Rad: Interesting. Interesting. Well, people check out Christian Clauwers on every social media out there. I think you're more active on LinkedIn and Instagram, if I'm not wrong.

[01:17:03] Christian Clauwers: Yeah. Correct. And my website is really the starting point with all the references and so on. So it's my surname dot com Clauwers, C L A U W E R S dot com.

[01:17:14] Mizter Rad: Exactly. Well, it was beautiful to have you here, Christian. And until next time.

[01:17:18] Christian Clauwers: Thank you so much, Mario. All right. All the best.