19. Mining Bitcoin with cow poop

Episode Transcript

[00:00:00] Mark Morton: you're seeing a situation across Ireland, the uk, Spain, Portugal, where getting a grid connection that is capable of taking all the energy that you're producing, whether that be a biogas plant, a wind farm, or a solar farm, isn't exactly the, the easiest process. There's delays in getting sufficient grid connections across Europe at the moment.

Mining could be a nice alternative which says, look, if, if I'm capable of producing a megawatt, but my maximum export capacity to the grid is only 500 or 750, then, then maybe I should consider bolting on some Bitcoin mining to maximize as much of the energy that I'm producing as I can.

[00:00:56] Mizter Rad: Hello. Beautiful humans. To be honest, I'm tired. I'm tired of listening to mainstream media, talking bad about Bitcoin. Saying Bitcoin is dirty. Claiming Bitcoin mining is not sustainable, that it wastes too much energy.

That's why I am sitting here today with a one and only Mark Morton, managing director of Scilling Mining. Mark, and a bunch of entrepreneurs and Bitcoin enthusiasts are helping Irish farmers mine Bitcoin with cow poop . Mark, how is it going?

[00:01:29] Mark Morton: Good, good. How are you mate?

[00:01:30] Mizter Rad: I'm very good.

I'm very good. I'm happy to have you here. I'm really looking forward to this chat. Let's start, Mark, by you telling us why farmers, why helping Irish farmers mine Bitcoin?

Why not other group of citizens in, in the productive economy?

[00:01:46] Mark Morton: Y yeah, I suppose so from our perspective, the, the farming side of things and the biogas side of things came from a, a long, long process of, of trying to identify where, where mining fits into the overall Irish landscape. So obviously we, we made a, an initial early decision to become miners, but you know, that's a very.

Generalistic idea. It's a very generalistic term. You know, how you actually apply mining to an existing energy market and see where you fit into the overall picture is a, a much, much longer process. So given that we were from Ireland, given that we were from Cork. We didn't wanna just up and leave and say, look, the, you know, high energy prices here are, are probably something that can drive us away and make us give up on the mining model, we, we kept asking ourselves, look, we, we do have energy here in Ireland, but what is the energy that would pair well with, with the likes of mining?

So we spent a number of months learning about Ireland's renewable industry. Basically getting a self-taught degree in renewables in order to then see where the efficient inefficiencies lie in it. Cause kind of our key thing was renewable operators inefficiencies were gonna be our opportunities. And so, you know, what are the opportunities out there?

So we learned that a lot about wind and solar went down that route for, for quite a long time. But ultimately what we realized is that given that they were quite intermittent, we needed a, a simpler initial proof of concept. And so we started asking ourselves, look, what could we try and find in Ireland?

You know, what's our energy source that will give us a nice high up time for mining, but also make a meaningful difference to the, the operator as well. And so after quite a long, you know, a long few months of research, we started coming across more and more articles about biogas. You know, it was kind of a more unknown energy source that we had here for me personally anyway.

And there was definitely a lot less about it that you could find online. But as we started to learn more and more about biogas plants, And how they're formulated from farm waste and food waste and, you know, grass silage and anything else that you can put into them. And they also produced a consistent supply of gas, which meant basically a hundred percent uptime. Slowly the cogs started turning in our head saying, look, this could be a winner not only for the guys that are operating these plants and that are being limited, perhaps by the amount they can sell to the grid. It'll also be a nice high uptime source in order to get our miners online as much as we possibly can.

So that was kind of the, you know, it sounds short, but it was a long process of learning about every kind of energy source that Ireland had to offer. But ultimately kind of zoning in on biogas as a very good starting point because it gave us the necessary uptime that we needed from a mining perspective.

And it also offered people who were operating these biogas plants in rural areas, a secondary buyer essentially, or a, a co-located buyer of last resort, as people say in the mining industry for their energy and ultimately reduces their dependence then, um, on grid infrastructure and getting the grid exports that they need.

[00:04:28] Mizter Rad: That's super interesting. For people that are not really familiar with biogas in the whole concept of using farm waste to generate electric energy. As far as I understand, Mark, you correct me if I'm wrong. You know, a farm produces manure, crops and residuals of those crops.

They also have water waste. They have food waste. And so they collect all this and they put it in sort of like a chamber that digests all this waste. And then the end result is biogas. And this gas then mechanically make some engine rotate and that generates electric energy.

Is that more or less the way, in a very simplistic way, of course, the way this works so that people kind of are on the same page.

[00:05:14] Mark Morton: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you essentially have it, have it exactly ba bang on, which is, you know, it's, it's, it's actually, you know, it's quite a, a simple process as you said, which is you have a mixture of stuff.

You have, you know, you have manure, you have grass silage, you have food crops, or sorry, food as you waste in some instances, as you said. On the biogas site that we are operating on, they have residuals from a, a dairy processing plant nearby. So they have waste from that dairy processing plant. And they, they're, so, they have a number of things that you can put in, but essentially, as you said, it's, it's almost more of a, a scientific process than the, than a mechanical process, which is you put in certain amounts of, of each of the given wastes that you have, or feed stocks as there's, as they're more commonly called, which is you have a balancing act between all your different feed stocks and you essentially put them into a large tank that is then over time, Broken down. So in these very large tanks that you'll see is actually a blade that's essentially moving those feedstocks around. And as they break down over time, they're producing methane. That methane is then extracted from those tanks and it's just ran through engines as, as it would any other kind of natural gas.

Um, and when you run that methane through the engines, you get a nice consistent supply of electricity that that can then either be exported to the grid or can be privately sent to a demand that's on site, which is, in our case, an AMA is, is a, a bitcoin mining operation.

[00:06:33] Mizter Rad: All right. So before jumping into Bitcoin Bitcoin mining, I wanna understand why is it important that there's no, there's, there's non intermittency. You were talking about the fact that you looked at wind, solar and they had intermittency, and that's not good for what you were looking for, or did I get it wrong?

[00:06:51] Mark Morton: No, so if anything it, the intermittency isn't, isn't an overall issue for mining. If anything, it's one of the issue, you know, it's one of the good sides of mining, which is you can switch machines on and off in an instant. You know, they're, people always talk about them being highly flexible and being a perfectly interrupted load and and so on.

But what we kind of started thinking through our own heads is, look, if we're gonna have to bring people here, which, you know, we've brought a lot of people to the site. We've brought people from energy industry, you know, energy industry participants from all over Ireland to the site. What we started realizing is, look, we can figure out a model for, for wind and solar.

But the key thing here is that we need to know that when we go and visit it, or when we showcase it, or when we try and, you know, Prove out this proof of concept over the next couple of months. We wanted to be on as much as we possibly can, and also we wanted to be able to use new machines. We wanted to, to look the part, you know, obviously, of course to, given that it was gonna be the first Bitcoin mining operation on the island of Ireland, we wanted it to be, you know, as, as real, as, as it possibly could be for the people that were coming to see it.

So we did look at all the different various models, firm mining with intermittent sources. Um, but ultimately we realized that look, we need this thing thing to be on as much as we possibly can, if we're gonna be having open days, if we're gonna be bringing people to see it and helping them understand it.

And of course then if we were pa paired with, with solar or wind, you know, there's no guarantee on any given day if we were to schedule something in advance that it was gonna be on. So, That initially started our, our kind of look for a different source. And when we found biogas we said, look, this is a great match.

So if we had to, we would've got a site up and running with wind solar. But when we realized how ma good of a match biogas was gonna be we said that was the one to go with. But, you know, going back to your question, intermittency essentially just leads to, to lower uptime for, for your mining operation, which obviously the kind of name of the game in mining is, is keeping your rigs on as much as you possibly can.

But there is no reason why you can't come up with an intermittent mining model, which is, you know, knowing that you're gonna be off a bit less often, you get slightly older machines, you can get secondhand machines, you can look at, you know, auto tuning or overclocking or whatever it might be to try squeeze as much economics or as much kind of revenue from that operation as you can, given that you're on lower uptime.

So it was much more of a, a practical decision that ended up just kind of falling quite nicely for us. Rather than saying that, look, biogas is our, our only option.

[00:09:08] Mizter Rad: So if having the machines running, the miners running all the time is so sort of interesting because maybe it brings you better return on investment. In your case it, it is important for showing the community and maybe educating the community on, on, on the benefits of having this kind of miners in their farms, is this something that also is important for you guys to consider when, or was this something you considered in the beginning of the whole process?

Did you want from the beginning to be on the whole time or.. ?

[00:09:43] Mark Morton: No. So, so if anything, it wasn't the case. So we started our journey reading a number of, of, there's reports in Ireland called Dispatch Down Reports which is basically Ireland, has a lot of renewable capacity on our grid system.

But even with all the will in the world, there's only so much of it that we can take at any given time. So, you know, every single year we're essentially wasting more and more energy. Where essentially a lot of the wind energy that's created in Ireland is just, is just wasted. There's no real use case for it.

And so people are trying to come up with innovative solutions to utilize as much of that wind and solar energy that's being wasted as, as we possibly can. So we actually started our journey assuming that we were gonna have to operate an intermittent mining model or a model in simpler terms that has to switch on and off in order to soak up excess energy.

But as I said, biogas kind of appeared outta nowhere in that deep dive that we were doing into renewables. And as the more we learned about it, the more we realized that actually this could be a very nice model to start with. And then we can rotate back into possible wind and solar sites in, in due time.

[00:10:45] Mizter Rad: So I understand that Ireland is a, is a country with a lot of cows. Yeah. Maybe more cows than people. And so there's probably also a lot of farms managing these cows and managing waste that is produced with these cows or for, the production of the whole farm. How many of these farms already have In your calculation a bio plant ?

[00:11:05] Mark Morton: Yeah, so the, believe it or not, there's actually not a lot of them in in Ireland at the moment. So our, our side is based in, in, in Northern Ireland, so it's just on the border between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland. And, and in Northern Ireland. They gave out some grants about seven or eight years ago to try and get these things up and running because they kind of realized, look, this is a consistent base load energy that can provide electricity to our grid, so we should, we should try and encourage it. Whereas unfortunately, in, in, in the south, in the Republic of Ireland, the incentives just haven't quite been there to get these things stood up. And there's been a lesser understanding of, of how effective I suppose they can be.

So we're getting to a stage where, where hopefully that's gonna change over the next couple of years. We have the government in Ireland now realizing that they should be focusing quite a lot on biogas. As, as you said, it, it, everyone, I think El else across Europe was kind of looking at Ireland, I think saying, look, these guys are perfectly situated, four more biogas plants.

But the question is, why don't they have them? And now we are pivoting, um, in Ireland to try and get more of these up and running. And then whether that be large scale plants of 500 kilowatts or a megawatt or very, very small scale plants, you know, uh, there's been a number of new entrants into the Irish biogas market in the past couple of months, like Veneman and then Cycle0 and, and a couple of others that are focusing on, on smaller plants.

But, either way, I think the, the biogas industry is now gonna start finding its feet in the Republic of Ireland over the next while, which is obviously then interesting from our perspective too. Um, cuz our grid is only gonna be able to take so much energy as we expand our renewable capacity. And so there could be a nice scope for, for mining to be a bolt on in a number of instances where the grid isn't capable of taking the energy that these are capable of producing.

[00:12:47] Mizter Rad: Alright, so let's take the case of a farmer. Let's say I'm a farmer in Ireland and I have cattle, I have my farm, obviously my farm produces waste, put waste crop, waste water, waste manure, and I'm already producing energy. What is the typical case of the farmer right now? A farmer like me that already have this setup that already knows about biogas and I already have a plan for it. To produce it.

What is the current situation of that farmer? What is, I mean, besides selling the energy to the grid, what is the farmer doing with the rest of the energy? What's the current mm-hmm. Status?

[00:13:24] Mark Morton: Yeah. Well, I suppose even the, the first point you're making there, which is Ireland is in an interesting spot where selling energy to the grid is, is, you know, just to acknowledge the first point, it sounds very easy in practice, but you know, you're seeing a situation across Ireland, the uk, Spain, Portugal, where getting a, a grid connection that that is, you know, capable of taking all the energy that you're capable of producing, which, whether, whether that be a biogas plant, whether it be a wind farm or a solar farm, whatever might be, isn't exactly the, the easiest process. So there's, there's delays in getting sufficient grid connections across Europe at the moment.

And so even from step one, mining could be a, a nice alternative bolt on there, which says, look, if, if I'm capable of producing a megawatt, but my maximum export capacity to the grid is only 500 or 750 then, then maybe I should consider bolting on some mining to maximize as much of the energy that I'm producing as I can.

So from, from kind of step one, mining should be getting considered, in my opinion, as a, a viable Bolt-on to, to, to stand up these projects in the event that the grid can't take it. Now let's assume that, that the grid can take quite a lot of the energy. What is the kind of competition for mining? You know, there are some stories of people, you know, putting their electricity into heaters to try the dry wood pellets and, and wood chip.

There's a couple of other things. Obviously people are trying to get the hydrogen market up and running, but I think where mining kind of excels is, isn't just how compact of a buyer it is and how simplistic the process is. So if you have 250 kilowatts that you can't sell to the grid, instead of doing a process like drying wood pellets where you then have to sell them on, why not just monetize it instantly at the source itself in a, in a compact way. Where your mining box can, you can fit 250 kilowatts of demand in, in a four meter long box by, by 2.9 wide.

It, it, it just seems like a much simpler and more cost effective process for monetizing your energy than the likes of drying wood pellets or whatever your other consumer might be.

[00:15:27] Mizter Rad: Let me jump in there because I mean, if I'm a farmer and I have that possibility of mining Bitcoin and you say that, uh, getting a great connection is not that easy.

Why not using all my energy a hundred percent of it to mine Bitcoin instead?

[00:15:41] Mark Morton: Yeah. So, you know, that that's certainly, that, that people are probably thinking in their own minds as in regards to even, even solar parks while they're delayed, you know, before your grid connection arrives. It's definitely something we're considering, I suppose from a mining perspective in Ireland at the moment, it's, there's, there's, firstly, there's a lack of understanding of Bitcoin, which is, you know, there's some people react to it saying, well look, I can't trust that cuz it might be gone in the morning.

You know? So I would much rather wait until my grid connection is ready than, than consider mining that, that risky thing that Bitcoin is. Even though from our perspective, we understand what Bitcoin is, we understand it's here to stay, not everybody does. And, and there's also a, a kind of a, a tough situation from a mining perspective in Ireland as well at the moment where, The grid is offering you so much for electricity because we're in an energy squeeze that in some instances people would prefer to wait knowing that they'll get so much from the grid in time.

But ultimately that isn't something that's gonna stay. And I think that that assumption is gonna slowly start to change as well, which is people think that the grid is gonna continue to offer them, you know, extortionately higher rates for their electricity for the foreseeable. But if Ireland is, is gonna meet the goals that it's set out for itself, which is becoming a, a huge renewable generator with offshore wind and another number of other things, then those guarantees of getting X amount from the grid aren't, aren't going to stay at all.

And so what people I feel in my mind are gonna start looking for is, Alternative or secondary markets or boltons like mining for their energy so that they can arbitrage between the two. So as, as you said there, there's quite a lot to consider, which is firstly people still here, you know, probably view Bitcoin mining and Bitcoin itself as, as quite risky.

And also there's, there's kind of a nice fallback, which is if you're bolting on mining and, and, and exporting to the grid, at least you're getting your consistent rate off the grid. And mining then is just providing a kind of excess, you know, revenue stream to you, which is, you're not overly dependent on something that you don't quite yet understand.

So I think it's just about...

[00:17:34] Mizter Rad: right. You're diversifying a bit.

[00:17:36] Mark Morton: Exactly. Yeah. You'd rather be diversifying then than to the, to the normal punter here. You'd rather diversify and dabble in some mining than, than putting all your kind of, all your kinda chips in one basket with that.

[00:17:47] Mizter Rad: And so how important, now you talk about like, um, you know, sort of the fears that the population have on Bitcoin.

How important is it for Scilling to educate the public? In this case, maybe the farmers specifically?

[00:17:59] Mark Morton: Yeah, it's, it's abs It's definitely a, a massive part of, of what we're doing at skilling, which is, you know, even, even for, for us getting the first site up and running in our ma you know, we, we basically gutted a room in our office here in, in, in court and we turned it into a display mine, which is, we built a shelf, we put in all the isolator switches, all the cams box, everything that we needed to replicate what the inside of a container might look like if we were to get one up and running in time.

And that was hugely beneficial for us, which is we were able to bring people in, go through a PowerPoint, have discussions, have small little meetups here in our office, but then we were able to go upstairs and see five s nineteens running away, um, in, in, in that, in that display room. And that was, Is really, really helpful on, as you said, on the education side, to just give people a physical example of how this thing works and, and the fact that it's actually quite normal.

It's just like a mini little data server room, you know, there there's not much else to it. It's actually quite a simple process. So it's definitely something that we've, that we've been working on from the beginning. And it's something that we'll be spending a lot of time on going forward, which is, we're just trying to normalize the idea of Bitcoin mining. Because it's still such a, such a kind of taboo subject here, where in an energy crisis, any kind of form of extra demand or strain on our grid system is something that should be kind of shunned or, or, or done away with.

And so when you're trying to explain that, no, no, this is a quite a unique demand, you know, it's location agnostic, it's perfectly interruptable. Um, and it's, it's very, you know, sensitive to on grid pricing. So it's a very good thing to add flexibility to your grid. There's still a lot of apprehension, but what we're working on is yes, getting more mining sites up and running for ourselves, but also then using all of those mining sites to, to showcase what it can do. And why it can actually be a net benefit going forward for our grid and for renewable operators as well.

[00:19:46] Mizter Rad: When you say that it's easy to turn off, is it, is it a bit like a computer, just press a button and turn off?

[00:19:52] Mark Morton: Yeah, if it, well, I suppose if anything it's, it's, it's better than, than, than your kind of normal PC or whatever, or, or not a traditional server, which is, there's, there's kind of no last data when you, when you switch off these machines.

So all, all these servers are doing at any given time is firing guesses. So an S 19 J Pro is firing a hundred trillion guesses a second. If you switch off that machine, you're not interrupting any kind of, you know, data processing or, or, or batch processing or anything like that. As soon as you switch on the machine, it'll just go back doing exactly what it was doing prior to being switched off.

So it really is, you know, a perfectly interruptible machine essentially, which gives it quite a lot of, of flexibility as we can see in Ercot in Texas. But it gives people a nice bit of independence as well. Which if they own the machines, you know, in a two machine box or a six machine box, that they have the peace of mind that they can walk out and switch it off by hand if they need to or by, by software.

So it, it does give you a lot of optionality as well.

[00:20:48] Mizter Rad: That's interesting that you touched the, the, the liberty, the freedom topic, because I think it goes along Bitcoin in general, of course, financial freedom. When I talked to a friend of mine about this conversation, he, he came up with two questions that I, I believe maybe for the Bitcoiners that are more experienced are quite basic.

But for me and for him and for other people maybe they're not, and maybe there's something that is always stuck in their head, but maybe they don't dare to ask. So I'm gonna ask you why, why, what will happen when you know, all the Bitcoin is mined. I believe there will be two 21 million Bitcoins.

Mm-hmm. What will happen to the bitcoin mining infrastructure that all these farmers, for example, in this case, are putting in their farms?

[00:21:33] Mark Morton: Yeah, so, well, I suppose the, the kind of first keeping in that is, is given the, the halving process and, and given the, the difficulty adjustment that the Bitcoin network automatically does every 2016 blocks.

The, the last Bitcoin won't actually be mined or, or the last Bitcoin won't actually be rewarded to, to miners until the year 2140. So there's, there's, there's quite a bit of time left in the, in the block reward itself yet. Um, and after that process, the assumption is we move from the block reward to, to operating on fees, um, that occur in those 10 periods.

Okay. So that's, that's where the, the transition looks currently. But obviously there's, there's a number of mechanisms in play there, which, which keeps mining competitive. Which is if the block award, you know, halfs, which it will in the next, in the next 12 months and mining becomes unprofitable for a huge number of individuals, they'll all switch off.

Mm-hmm. Difficulty adjustment will, will make it slightly easier and it'll become slightly more profitable again for anyone that can stay on. So it's an ever-changing balancing process that, you know, has a, a lot of longevity built into it, you know, systematically.

[00:22:37] Mizter Rad: So it's supply and demand in the end?

[00:22:39] Mark Morton: Essentially. Yeah.

[00:22:40] Mizter Rad: So wh when you say halves what, what do you mean with that? So that people understand what you mean with that?

[00:22:45] Mark Morton: Yeah. So the having is, is essentially bitcoin's, you know, built in, you know, deflationary process, I suppose you can call it, which is at the moment, every 10 minutes, um, you know, the miners are rewarded with, with 6.25 Bitcoin.

It started at 50. Bitcoin was your, your reward for mining every 10 minutes. Then it went to 25, then, you know, 12.5. Now we're at, we're at 6.25. Um, and it'll be 3.125 in, in 12 months time. So that's, it's, it's basically bitcoin's built in scarcity. So, so that this will happen automatically, every 210,000 blocks.

And it's something that we can change. It's just something that you can adapt and deal with, with regards to your own mining economics. But it, the block reward, if people don't know is essentially how, how miners are rewarded. It's, it's how you get your reward for building a facility or building a container and, and paying for your electricity.

It's, it's your key form of revenue for, as a miner.

[00:23:37] Mizter Rad: When you help farmers or your customers, set up this min bitcoin mining infrastructure and you share with them the cost that, it will bring along, setting up all this infrastructure, do you also, sorry, do you also help them sort of have this financial sort of forecast taken into account the, the, the helping or the sort of rewards that they will get in the future in the years to come based on how the Bitcoin ecosystem works with the halving and stuff like that?

Because if they get rewarded less that's something to take into account when investing in this infrastructure, or am I...

[00:24:17] Mark Morton: yeah. No, we, we will do it, we will always do our best with every individual that, that we speak with when we're doing a proposal for them. We will, we'll also do modeling internally in here, which is, as you said, you, you'd look at the next 12 months, which I think the having is, is just under 12 months away.

So you'll do your, your estimates for that period. And then you'll also factor in that the having is occurring and then after that period you have to assume you're gonna be operating with a reward of 3.125 Bitcoin instead of your normal, you know, 6.25. So we would do all of that for them. And, and we'd also look at the cost of the machines and, and ultimately give them, give them some form of, of ROI.

But we would also go to a, a massive effort to, to not just explain the kind of revenue side of it. You know, as I said, the reason we built the display room is here in our office and we go through the full effort of not just explaining mining, but explaining Bitcoin in and itself. You know, we, we explained the whole overarching idea of what you're doing when you're mining, you know, so it's not just a case of energy in, you know, Bitcoin quickly out and swapped into Euros and, and gotten rid of, you know, we try our best to explain why we are into Bitcoin, you know, what, why we started a Bitcoin business. Why Bitcoin interests us, so that it's not just the case of, of selling a, an energy box.

You know, it's a case of trying our best to talk with people and anyone that we speak with about Bitcoin. And, and help them understand, you know, what it is they're, they're fully buying into for the long term. So there, there's quite a lot to it, but of course, as you said, the right simplest thing being is, is just doing the simple financial models and seeing if it stacks up for them and then all the other stuff comes after.

[00:25:50] Mizter Rad: I'm trying to wrap my head around the initial investment that a farmer needs to put in, in order to set up a bitcoin mining infrastructure in their farm that is already producing in the, for example, biogas and have some excess energy that can be used to mine bitcoin. How much are we talking about?

More or less. Like of course, it depends on how big it will be and so on how many machines you have to, you, you wanna have in your infrastructure, but more or less, so that we have an idea.

[00:26:20] Mark Morton: Yeah. Yeah. So exactly as you said, it would, it all really depends on, on the size of the operation that you're running.

You know, you can get set up with a two machine, you know, two machines and a, and a two machine box for, for, for less than 10,000 euro. And if you wanna be running with half a megawatt, it might cost you up as up as high as half a million euros. So there's obviously a, a very wide band that you, that you're operating in there, but, Ultimately there's, there's kind of, you know, with, with regards to the small boxes, I suppose the rule of thumb is that I would say it's probably best for you to mine yourself rather than splitting that with, with someone like ourselves.

But as you kind of get to the larger installations and those economies of scale, scale sets kicking in, there's a few different revenue models that you can operate, which is, you know, we could come along and, and, and Scilling is the operator or the owner of the mining box. And we provide you with a, a a cent per kilowatt hour rate.

Or you can do a rev share model, which is you share the cost of the container between e and then obviously share the revenue, or as I said, you can just sell the infrastructure outright. So it really all depends on, on what's available to you and what makes most sense for both people on either side of that exchange.

And what we've found is that on the smaller sites, you know, whether it be two machines or six or 12, kind of zero to 50 kilowatts. Or even as far as a hundred. It just makes sense for them to be the, the kind of core owner and a lot of individuals of that infrastructure themselves.

[00:27:41] Mizter Rad: And so you, I think it is very interesting when you talked about the micro plants, the small, smaller plants.

How, how is that? Because I believe you, you started with a bigger client, let's say. I got to know about you when I read this article on Coin Telegraph. And this guy, I, I forgot his name now. He, he was producing a lot of energy, Yep. In his farm and I believe his setup is quite big. Mm-hmm. But when it comes to smaller plants, you talked about micro plants earlier when we talked on the phone.

Can you tell us a bit more about this? Is this, is this the future? Do you see this, uh, something happening more and more especially with smaller farmers?

[00:28:23] Mark Morton: Yeah. Well, it's certainly something that, that's developing and as I said, there's, there's kind of, there's two businesses that have, that have kind of joined recently from what I've seen in headlines that I think one is called Lumin. There's another one called Cycle0 that's recently entered the Irish market that specifically operate in, in micro biogas plants or small scale anaerobic digesters or biogas plants. We kind of interchangeably use the words here, but you know, they, they could be very interesting instances where, you know, I've even seen in some of their articles, they're talking about mini biogas plants.

Specifically where, where feed stocks are, are stranded. So you know those farms that are basically in the middle of nowhere. But of course if you're, if you're purposefully building a biogas plant, small scale, because the feed stocks are in the middle of nowhere, you could assume that the, the electrical infrastructure or the grid infrastructure in that area is probably gonna be lacking as well.

So it's all well in good building a biogas plant in the middle of nowhere and producing, say, 50 to 80 kilowatts. But you then have to find, uh, something to do with those 50 or 80 kilowatts. And if you can't export it, what we're trying to do is come along and say, look, here's where you can bolt on, you know, a small mining setup to overall initial capital expenditure. And it'll give you a, a nice way to monetize that gas without being heavily dependent on the grid.

And so there's kind of a, a two-pronged approach to that, which is, yes, we need to help people to understand as the operator, how mining works and whether they want to bolt it onto their side of their setup.

But there's also a second kind of hurdle that we're gonna have to tackle with that as well, which is, as you said there with regards to funding, that if, if an individual doesn't have the money for them themselves to fund it, they're gonna have to go to the traditional financier, which they probably already have done for their biogas plant.

And we now need to start building understanding amongst the financiers of why mining is bolted onto it and what it's doing. So the last thing that, that we kind of want to overcome is if you can build a biogas plant and everything stacks up well and, and mining would be a great bolt on because the grid isn't available in the local area or isn't sufficient enough to take the energy, it needs to be recognized as a viable energy asset bolt on.

The la you know, if, if, if a financier looks at it and says, look, I'm assuming giving that mining is risky or whatever it might be, I'm gonna assume that you essentially have no buyer for 40 kilowatts of the 80 that you're producing. That's the risk premium I'm gonna slap on your financing that then, you know, creates an issue.

So there's a lot of things that we need to work toward, but I think it's all an education thing and, and, and the, the more mining that you get up and running and the more it becomes normalized and the more people start coming out as advocates for mining and all, and showcasing all the different examples that we have, the more it's gonna be recognized by the, the more traditional financiers and the overall renewable industry as a whole.

[00:31:05] Mizter Rad: Right. And so when you talk about the hurdle of exporting the energy to the grid and connecting to the grid, what are the main reasons why that is happening? What, from your experience, what have you seen out there?

[00:31:19] Mark Morton: Yeah. So, you know, in, in its simple sense, and a lot of times it's, it's just an infrastructure issue. Which is the, the, the overhead transmission lines in that area just aren't, essentially don't have the, the capacity to take the energy that that's being created. And either, you know, require groundworks or require civil works in order to upgrade those power lines, which then of course, that that cost has to be beared by someone.

And even if you take cost costs aside, you know, the, the logistics of, of improving the transmission lines in certain areas is, is, is isn't something that can be done overnight. You know, that takes time. That delays energy generation.

[00:31:55] Mizter Rad: But how do they finance all this? So, sorry to interrupt Mark, but how do they, how do, how is this a public thing?

Is this owned, is this grid owned by a public institution, by the government normally, or is it also a private company?

[00:32:07] Mark Morton: Yeah, so, so the grid in Ireland in a lot of instances would be cared for by, by, you have the ESB in Ireland, you've, you've EirGrid as well, who are two of the kind of largest, you know, operators in Ireland and, and are the ones that will oversee the, the development and, and the kind of protection of the grid, but also its improvement.

And so in some instances mm-hmm you'll have, you'll have to bear the cost obviously of, of your specific connection. But we are, you know, the likes ESB and EirGrid and some of the operators in Ireland, of course are share the kind of conviction and wanting the grid to be in, to be improved. And, and they're certainly doing their best on a large scale overarching view to improve our grid infrastructure to get, say, energy from the west of Ireland where wind is produced to where the demand is on the east of Ireland and the likes of Dublin.

So they'll be bearing a lot of the brunt of the logistics and the cost of improving our grid system. But when it comes to physically connecting to the grid as a, as a renewable generator, you'll probably have to bear the, the brunt of that cost in, in, in 99.99% of instances.

[00:33:06] Mizter Rad: Hmm. I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm sitting here wondering if, uh, all these big companies are happy with what you're doing, or, or they see you as a, sort of like a competitor.

Because of what I said before, you know, if you're, if you're a farmer and you're producing energy, sometimes you know it's better to sell it, but sorry to, to, to mine Bitcoin, than maybe sell it to the grid either because it, the grid doesn't pay well or it's just too difficult to connect to it.

Mm-hmm. So I'm thinking if this is a concern for them or Yeah.

[00:33:36] Mark Morton: What's your take? Yeah. Well, in my opinion, I, I honestly don't, don't think it would, I think it's something that, that naturally they are gonna be thinking about it themselves, which is, if they're, if there's only so much they can do as, as a national operator of the grid to, to improve it, they're gonna be looking at other ways to, to get more renewable capacity onboarded in a way that makes economic sense for that renewable operator.

And it's, those instances bolting mining on could be the difference in, in some of these kind of really constrained areas to standing up a renewable, you know, set up or not. Um, so I think the key thing is, is, is that the economics of mining will, at the moment anyway, guarantee that it's not a rival consumer of energy.

So, so that's a, a really key thing to remember here, which is, When I talk to individuals that speak about mining and say, look, oh well you shouldn't bring mining anywhere near the Irish grid. We're in an energy crisis. The last thing we need is, is more demand. What I'm basically saying to people is, look, it doesn't make sense from a miner perspective or renewable operator expense perspective to mine Bitcoin if the grid is willing to offer more or if the grid is capable of taking it.

Cause at the moment, the grid is gonna offer you more than you're gonna get from mining Bitcoin. So naturally mining will take itself out of that competitive nature and automatically make itself a non-rival consumer of energy. So the only instances where, where mining will be implemented is, is in an instance where it's meaningful for, for both the mine and the operator.

Um, and that will only be the case if, if the grid, as you said, isn't offering enough. But if the grid isn't offering enough, it usually means cuz there's a surplus on the grid. Or, and the demand isn't there in order to drive up the price. So in reality, in my, in, in my opinion, you know, mining is a, has a harmonious relationship with the grid, not a, not a parasitic one.

And I think that's the way it'll continue going forward as well.

[00:35:23] Mizter Rad: But wh why, why do you think there's so much concern of the general public when it comes to thinking about energy, energy in, in the, in the way that, you know, Bitcoin consumes too much energy. We need energy and, but then on the other hand, you're telling me that one of the main problems is that the energy that is being produced, for example, renewable energy, is not being used well, there's a lot of waste.

So, but, but, but people don't think about this when, when they think about energy and in this case mining Bitcoin, they think that Bitcoin is actually taking off the plate of energy that is scarce. Why is this happening?

[00:36:04] Mark Morton: Yeah. Well, I, I think again, it's just a, it's, it's, it's more of a kind of marketing thing.

It's a, it's a lack of understanding. And, and, and in some instances, you know, it's, it's understandable. You know, we've had, we've had a tough 12 months in Ireland here where we've had pubs closed, we've had cafes closed. We've had a number of, of businesses, even in incor that have been around for decades, that because of energy prices have had to shut down because their bills have been so high.

And so I can understand, you know, there's, there's an apprehension to, you know, me trying to come along, or us as a business or miners in general, coming along and saying, look, no, no, this, this demand is quite unique. It's location agnostic. It's a non-rival consumer of energy. But when all the headlines for the past 12 months have been about an energy crisis and, and businesses across Ireland closing down because they can't pay their bills I can understand why there's apprehension to someone coming along and saying, no, no what the solution is in some instances here over the next couple of years is... Is adding more demand. It's very counterintuitive to, to what you would expect, but there's, there's quite a lot to be said about it. And I think it's just, as I said at the, at the beginning, it's just about kind of normalizing mining alongside the likes of, of battery storage as hydrogen, as all of these other ideas that are being thrown around that are gonna help our progression over the next decade in Ireland, it's, it's just about bringing it into that conversation in a, in a way that says, look, we're not saying that it's the silver bullet that's gonna solve all our problems. By no means are we saying that, but in a lot of strategic examples, it can be a very meaningful bolt on, and it's something that should be amongst the kind of table of discussion.

And, and then I think as, as you said that the kind of, you know, that it'll start to turn then and, and the overall perception of it will, hopefully will start to change.

[00:37:45] Mizter Rad: Right. You, you, you keep mentioning location agnostic. Why is this important?

[00:37:49] Mark Morton: Yeah. Well, I, I, so I suppose then the reason it's so important from a mining perspective, it it's that it's the buyer of energy that can go where nowhere the buyer can go. You know, it, it's something that's, that's very, very unique, which is say take the likes of, of Gridless Compute over, over in, in, in Kenya, which are, you know, building mining in microgrids that are in the middle of nowhere.

So I think that's, that's where you can see mining really being utilized already in a very meaningful way, which is, You can essentially place any amount of demand or that needs to be consumed or any amount of, electricity that in a certain area that needs to be consumed cause it's being wasted, can be soaked up by mining.

So mining can be put in the middle of nowhere with a, a very weak internet connection because all the machines are doing is essentially firing guesses. You know, they're not doing anything to tie bandwidth and they can soak up that energy. And they can instantly monetize it, which can then be turned into Bitcoin, which can be turned into euros, essentially on the spot, you know, 24 7.

Right. And that's, you know, it's quite unique that, that, that there's a, a consumer like that that exists.

[00:38:50] Mizter Rad: So I didn't know mining Bitcoin doesn't require a good connection to the internet. Didn't know that.

[00:38:56] Mark Morton: Yeah. It, it's, and it's a very, it's, you know, it's one of those things that's kind of often overlooked.

You know, there's a, a lot of the data centers are, are in Ireland, are, are kind of in a similar, similar place, you know, for instance, say in the outer Dublin area. Um, yes, because of en energy reasons, but also because that's where the best fiber optics are, um, across Ireland as well. So, you know, where mining can kind of excel is that you can essentially drop a box in an area, say on the west of Ireland where there's a lot of energy, but the bandwidth is, and the fiber optics are quite poor.

Um, and you can set up, you know, a megawatt of, of, of demand or a megawatt data center essentially in the middle of nowhere, which again adds to the kind of uniqueness of, of, of its demand.

[00:39:35] Mizter Rad: That's interesting. Okay. Didn't know that. Super interesting when it comes to like, cooling your Mining centers.

You have a, you have a say you have a client is a farmer. He sets up his mining bitcoin mining center in his farm. I know, I understand that this bitcoin mining infrastructure produces heat. Is that a concern for you? How are you tackling this problem? And what, what, what are your thoughts on this?

And I'm asking you this because in my last episode, I had a very interesting entrepreneur working with botanical waters. He, that's how he calls it. Basically, he recycles water from let's say plants producing ketchup or you know, tomato sauce. And out of all this production, there's waste water.

That waste water normally gets thrown away, but he takes that water. And he cleans it up. He recycles it and then he sells it again. This is drinkable water, but sometimes this water is also being bought by data centers, for example, in the US to cool off their machines. Now that's a lot of water. Mm-hmm.

Needed to cool off their machines. So I guess my question is how do you look at this issue, this situation, if you wanna, you know, be or aim to be a hundred percent environmentally friendly, uh, this could be a problem or? What do you think about this?

[00:40:59] Mark Morton: Yeah, so from our perspective, our, our container as well, the larger ones, some of the smaller ones would be, would be passively cooled, but the larger ones would just be air cooled using fans that we would've built into the wall, um, on the exhaust side of the container.

So we'd essentially be bringing in cold air, um, from outside the units. It goes through the units, and then the hot air gets exhausted out the, the side of the container. And so that's essentially how, how we would be working to, to keep our units cooled. And now there are other people that have, you know, trialing, immersion cooling as you said, or water cooling.

There's bitmain are bringing our new hydro cooled units as well at the moment that people are trialing. But from our perspective, at least for Ireland and, and the uk you know, and, and maybe even parts of Central Europe air cooled from our perspective has, has, has shown to be, you know, quite efficient.

It's quite cost effective as well. Um, and it keeps the machines adequately Cool. You know, we also have a, a nice climate here. It's, there's a, it's part of the reason there's a lot of data centers here as well. Is that our climate is so cool naturally. That some of the data centers in Ireland don't then have such high costs as opposed to how it might be in, in, in hotter countries.

So you don't need as much cooling because essentially our climate is so cool all the time. What we can have to worry about here in Ireland now, we would factor in for extreme temperatures, you know, extreme temperatures here in Ireland would be 30 degrees Celsius for us. But, you know, we would be assuming that it'll go much higher just from a design perspective.

But what, what we look at here is the likes of frost, you know, possibility of snow for our units. Um, and obviously there's a quite a unique one here in Ireland, which is Driven Rain as well, which is instead of it just raining here in Ireland, we have such high winds mixed with the heavy rain. That rain essentially gets whipped from side to side.

So it's, it's something that you have to be careful of when you're designing the, I suppose, what's the best word, the, the leaves on the outside of your units as well to make sure no rain can essentially get, get thrown up and under your, your shelves, um, and into the container.

[00:42:51] Mizter Rad: That's, uh, that's interesting.

You have it all covered. In your head, in your opinion, where else do you see opportunities to make better use of, of our resources in general, maybe of the, of the energy that is not being used or wasted energy. Now you're helping farmers use the energy generated from their waste, to mine, Bitcoin, and secure, in my opinion, an important financial network.

But I guess two questions pop into my mind, which are, number one:

which other energy sources do you think are interesting to capitalize on? We talked about bio-energy but is there anything else that you're looking into or you guys would like to look into in the future?

[00:43:37] Mark Morton: Yeah, so well, from an energy perspective, we, as I said from the beginning, I have definitely been, been heavily focused on, on looking at wind and solar, um, as our next kind of go-tos.

We've looked at hydro as well, but generally what I've found so far in Ireland is that hydro is generally well utilized. So the, the, the, the, the hydro plants that we have are, are usually being utilized to the best of their ability. But as I said, we're having every single year, uh, the amount of energy that we're wasting from the likes of wind and solar, um, generation on the island of Ireland is, is steadily rising.

And so that's where we'll be focusing a lot of our attention next is, is approaching wind and solar operators that are having grid capacity issues that are experiencing grid connection delays or, you know, with the likes of wind farmer, wind farms that are, are wasting a lot of their energy because of constraint and curtailment.

We'll be approaching all of those guys and we are approaching all of those guys currently to say, look, mining could be a, a very nice bolt on for your sites to offtake any energy that you would've previously been wasting. And, and, and that's a, you know, a model that's gonna continue to develop, which is, you know, we start now with containers.

Whereby we, we drop them on site. And that could be the model for, for quite a while. But ultimately, as Ireland becomes a more and more heavily renewable grid, um, and has more and more of this non synchronous generation as you'd call it, there's nothing to say that our model might not transition from:

Yes container at the beginning, an off-grid, to an on-grid model, whereby we're, we're actually taking off of the grid, but we're doing so in a highly flexible way that provides benefit to the grid in, in that flexibility. So I think our model is, is going to continue to develop, um, I think it's gonna be a containerized off grid model for the foreseeable until the price of electricity in Ireland slowly starts the taper off.

But I don't think that when the, the price of electricity taper is off or the, the grid infrastructure improves in Ireland, that mining goes away. I just think it, it takes a different form. Um, and if anything, because it becomes an even more integral part of the actual grid itself, then.

[00:45:36] Mizter Rad: How, how do, can you explain that again because I, I didn't, I didn't understand how does it go from being off the grid to being part integral part of the, of the grid actually?

[00:45:45] Mark Morton: Yeah. So at, how do you see that? Yeah, so I'm basically operating on the assumption that, you know, Ireland wants to become a, a net exporter of energy. So we, we have a big plans for a lot of offshore wind, you know, literally a, a couple of gigawatts and, and a couple of gigawatts and on a very, very small island like our own is, is both a, a massive positive, positive but also a massive headache in order to, to actually deal with that amount of energy coming onto our grid and then hopefully through Interconnectors and number of other things, get to Central Europe and, and France and a number of other places.

But, In doing so, we kind of believe that the price of on grid electricity in in Ireland will start to come down. And, and, and when I say we might transition from off grid to on grid, I'm paying heavy, you know, a lot of attention to the likes of ERCOT, which is the Texas grid system, whereby they're purposefully onboarding more miners to the grid itself because they provide grid flexibility, so, so they can consume wind energy overnight when no one needs it.

But during the day, if they need to be switched down or scaled down in their consumption, They can do so basically instantly and provide that electricity back to other consumers on the grid that need it. And that's generally how I might see our, our model changing here in Ireland, which is we might eventually in time and hopefully if, if things go the way we hope they will, we'll be building data centers that are actually situated on grid and are providing what, what are called grid ancillary services to the grid whereby we switch on and off to provide relief.

So that's, so I generally, you know, maybe see things going over the next decade in Ireland as we start producing more, more renewable capacity.

[00:47:19] Mizter Rad: So you think the sort of security of maintaining the Bitcoin infrastructure will be sort of dependent in a way, or managed by the bigger traditional energy companies?

[00:47:33] Mark Morton: Well, I think, well, I think, we'll, we'll still be the, the integral part of all that I, I, what I'm more saying is that if, say these pockets of energy that are being wasted in, in kind of isolated areas start to go away. And the containerized model doesn't become quite as appealing. On grid. On grid, highly high renewable capacity grids are still gonna need flexible demand built, built, built in for them.

You know this, this is something that even the International Energy Agency everyone is saying is that the more renewable capacity you bring on grid, the more and more difficult it becomes to balance that renewable capacity because the generation is what we call non synchronous, which is. You know, it's not always sunny, it's not always windy.

It could be very, very windy on, on given days. And what you need on grid in order to balance all of that generation is, is what's called flexible demand. Um, and that's why, as I said, you're seeing ERCOT, which is the Texas grid system encouraging more miners because as I said, what they do is they, they bring along a demand that will consume the energy when, when other people don't need it and provide a consistent revenue stream for the wind farms, for the solar farms.

But if there's ever a heat wave or if there's a cold snap in the winter, whatever it might be, those consumers of energy switch off and provide that electric electrical capacity that they would've been consuming to other b buyers of energy. So it's going back to this idea of, of mining being a, a non-rival consumer of energy, you know, when the energy is needed elsewhere.

It'll readily switch off. Um, and I think in Ireland that could be a, you know, mining could be a really, really key part of the grid in that it'll provide that flexibility, um, through the likes of the renewable capacity. All the renewable capacity operators that are, that are on grid at the same time.

[00:49:13] Mizter Rad: Interesting. That's an interesting macro view. So how would you imagine the world in 10, 20 years from now when it comes to Bitcoin and Bitcoin mining?

[00:49:27] Mark Morton: Yeah. Well, I suppose that's a, that's a, it's a pretty wide, wide open question, you know, I think.

[00:49:32] Mizter Rad: Right. I wanna pick your brain there. Yeah, yeah.

No, I do. I wanna know what you think, how you see it.

[00:49:37] Mark Morton: Yeah. No, and, and I think, I think, you know, Bitcoin mining, if we focus on that first, we'll, we'll continue to be, uh, an industry that's gonna mature. You know, I, you know, there's an assumption that, you know, it's, it's not that early in this overall process, but in reality it is, which is, as I said earlier, mining is an integral part of the grid system in Texas.

It's something that's not understood at all, really over here. And so I think, you know, we still have, have our moment kind of in the sun in Ireland, where, where mining is an integral part of that. And, and that's generally, as we said earlier on, when it comes to the education side, I think the understanding of mining will continue to develop.

And I, I, I personally think you'll see it being broadly mentioned in the overall conversation of grid build out and renewable capacity build out. So that's where I see mining going. I seeing it, see it going from something that's kind of in the fringes of, of conversations in a number of places.

Obviously it's an integral part of the conversation in Texas, but I think that general kind of consensus of, of look mining needs to be looked at. It's actually quite a unique buyer. We should give it some time instead of assuming that it's something that needs to be shunned or gotten rid of. So I, I think mining has a, has a massive amount of runway to grow and, and become a mature energy asset bolt on, that everyone mentions in the discussion of, of building new renewable, you know, generation.

Um, but I, I suppose then, then on the Bitcoin side of things, I think Bitcoin will have, follow a similar path. I think it's, you know, it's, it's still a new asset. I still think it's, it's an asset that's maturing, um, and has that similar kind of upside runway that the mining industry itself has. And I think they'll, they'll go in tandem, you know, as, as mining of, you know, as, as Bitcoin, as the price of Bitcoin rises, mining and, and how to accrue Bitcoin will become, you know, more and more on people's minds as to, as to how they can get, be a part of the overall industry and, and, and get some bitcoin of their own. But either way, I think irrespective of whether the Bitcoin price takes a, a big run up or not, even if it stays stagnant, I think it's because it's such a unique consumer of energy I think the mining side of things will continue to develop even in, even in a world where the price of Bitcoin doesn't quite reach the highs that some individuals think it might.

[00:51:44] Mizter Rad: Interesting, interesting. Mark what, what's your thoughts on what are your thoughts on the idea that or the fact Better said, and there's a lot of good stuff happening in the Bitcoin field with countries like El Salvador or smaller cities in Costa Rica adopting Bitcoin and actually using Bitcoin as a medium of exchange. People buying and selling their products with Bitcoin outside of the Fiat system.

But there's also this other negative side. And I said negative because I'm convinced that Bitcoin is a very good thing to be and to be happening in our lifetime. But there's this other negative side that, you know, there's a lot of governments wanting to, to to, first of all to, give Bitcoin super bad reputation.

And so sort of scare off the general population from Bitcoin and on the more extreme side, ban Bitcoin or put all legal obstacles for people to hold it. How, how is that gonna develop? Because this will definitely affect not only your business, but the farmer's business, and also the hundreds and thousands, if not millions of people already using Bitcoin as a way of staying out of the crazy fiat system.

[00:53:00] Mark Morton: Yeah, yeah. No, I, I think it's, it's, it's, it's a good question, but I think it's a question that's just multifaceted in, in that, you know, there's a lot of people, um, around the world, you know, and, and it's, I'm recently joined BP uk, which is Bitcoin Policy UK for, for advocating for progressive, you know, Bitcoin regulation and, and better understanding of Bitcoin as an asset, and also a better understanding of mining and how it can become an integral part to say of the UK grid. Or, you know, be a catalyst for faster renewable expansion.

So, There's a kind of a two-sided approach to this, which is there's a lot of people, you know, myself included, that, you know, visited Strasberg and talked to the members of Parliament. I'm now part of the B BP uk. We're gonna probably try to get, you know, more mining councils and bitcoin councils in and themselves set up around Europe over the next couple of months as well, that are helping us as kind of advocacy groups for a greater understanding of Bitcoin amongst politicians, amongst government groups.

In order to ensure that as this, as this kind of industry and this asset develops, that it's not held back, you know, and it's not misunderstood and, and, and un purposefully kind of shunned, when in reality it can offer a lot of potential, a lot of jobs, a lot of growth, a lot, a number of things it can offer.

So there's a lot of people around the world that are advocating for it. Now, there's also the kind of ulterior understanding of Bitcoin, which is. It's a very, very difficult thing to stop, you know? And, and as much as you can advocate for as much as you possibly can, and you can explain about it as, as much as you possibly can, it's an extremely resilient network that firstly in, in, with regards to if one person bans it, there's gonna be another person that's gonna come up, put their hand up and say, look, we're open to it.

Even within individual states, across the US you're already seeing that kind of conflicting opinion where some states are saying, we're open for business, we want Bitcoin companies, we want bitcoin mining companies. And there's other states saying they want nothing to do with it. So I think, I suppose, you know, what you're gonna see is, is states realizing, or whether it be individual states in the US or countries realizing the game theory here, which is if they take a negative stance, We can avail of all the business that comes from taking up, you know, a positive stance, you know, in the opposite direction.

I think all of this game theory will always continue to play out forever. But in the meantime, what you're seeing is a number of individuals, myself included, trying our best to be on the kind of forefront of it and saying, look, this is, there's a huge upside to this, even on an, from an Irish perspective with regards to the Bitcoin mining and the renewable side to say, look, this is an opportunity that shouldn't be overlooked.

It could become a very integral part of our grid system. It could become a very, very good strategic option for us in terms of our renewable build out. You know, don't essentially, you know, close the door on it before you understand it. So I think there's a lot happening with regards to that. It being banned, as I said, is personally something that I don't worry about.

Maybe I'm being naive, but I think as I said, from that two-pronged approach, which is there's people that are proving how much of a kind of benefit it can be with regards to the renewable side and ERCOT and a number of other places. And I think Ireland will, will fall into line in with regards to realizing its potential there as well.

And I think once small things like that start to happen and more and more people start coming out and putting their hand up saying, look, I integrated mining for this reason. It, it was meaningful for me. It provided me with value. More and more renewable operators in Ireland start to integrate it, us as a business, as Scilling, you know, hopefully start to prosper and do quite well.

I think it then it becomes a very, very hard decision to kind of shut down something, both on a commercial sense that it's providing so much value to people. And then as I said, the kind of ending point to that is even if they shut down all the kind of prospering businesses, all the kind of commercial value, the jobs, the growth that comes from it, and all the advocacy fails, it's still a very, very difficult network to, to try and kind of close up shop on.

And I think that's kind of a, a key underlying thing that the more you learn about it, the more you realize that banning it is, is kind of a, a zero sum game at the, at the end of the day.

[00:56:58] Mizter Rad: Absolutely. And I, I hope for that as well. And it was really a pleasure to have you here, Mark. It was it was absolutely fantastic.

I'm very thankful that we could, manage to chat. And it was fun. It went smooth. I learned a lot from you and I hope to see you soon. Any, for any other episode and thank you so much for your work. I think it's really important, not only bringing an alternative source of income and possibilities to farmers in Ireland in this case, but also, and more importantly, I think educating people ,any kind of people, about the wonders of Bitcoin and being able to be outside of the crazy fiat system that has us under a threat, I would say.

[00:57:43] Mark Morton: Yeah. Well, well, no problem at all. I, I thoroughly enjoyed it as well, and, and I likewise, I, I appreciate you taking the time to, to chat with me and, and having me on and, and listening to the kind of all the thoughts that I'm always kind of ready, ready to, to spew out there.

So I appreciate you giving me the platform to do it.

[00:57:57] Mizter Rad: Thank you, mark. Thank you everyone. It was a pleasure to have you guys here. And until next time, cheer, have a wonderful evening.

[00:58:04] Mark Morton: Thank you.

[00:58:04] Mizter Rad: Chao Chao.