15. Microchipping humans: are we better off as human-machine hybrids?

TRANSCRIPT

[00:00:00] Wojtek Paprota: The most convenient way to pay is when the implant is near the end of the hand. In my case, it's at the top of the palm. Between the fourth and fifth finger.

If I want to pay with that, I just tap my hands to the payment terminal. The place where the NFC reader is placed. And the connection is established. And then I pay for my, for my shopping. That's how it works.

[00:00:41] Mizter Rad: Hello, beautiful humans. I'm joined today by Wojtek Paprota. He is a transhumanist and founder of two companies that sell a technology in form of chips. Or better said implants, that you can put under your skin. For some, this is super controversial.

For others, this is just another way of hacking your body and augmenting, improving, the human experience through technology. Wojtek, how are you doing?

[00:01:12] Wojtek Paprota: Hey, thank you for such your introduction. I'm doing well. How about you? Thanks for having me I'm in the podcast.

[00:01:18] Mizter Rad: Yeah, I'm, it's a pleasure to have you, man. So many things to unpack here.

And first of all, I want to ask you, do you get a lot of hate or rejection for what you do?

[00:01:30] Wojtek Paprota: Of course, it's inevitable because whenever you are working on a disruptive innovation and a new technology, something that breaks the paradigm, it's inevitable because people, when they are not sure about what the other person is doing, are always skeptical.

And that's natural. When you look at the product's life cycle, at the very beginning there's only a small portion of people that are called early innovators or even evangelists that are keen to try it out. But the majority of people will definitely show the skepticism, which is which is in fact, Positive, because it's of course has the roots in the very variation times, when there was something that was normal, people used to consider that as a danger. And after a certain education about it, then they can adapt that, so that's, that's, that's okay. I, I'm not expecting everyone to like it. But once I explain how it works and let's say kill the objections, probably everyone, or mostly everyone is excited and positive towards this idea.

[00:02:40] Mizter Rad: Maybe even wanting to try them out.

[00:02:43] Wojtek Paprota: That's another extreme. But yeah, like some of them, some of them went from one extreme to another, so definitely, definitely it's possible.

[00:02:53] Mizter Rad: So how many people, from what you understand in the world already have implants under their skin?

[00:03:02] Wojtek Paprota: So implants the smart implants, of course, that's what we are talking about at the moment have been on the market since let's say 2013, I should say. Because 2013 was the time was the year when the biggest online store with implants was launched. Its name is Dangerous Things. Run by Amal Graafstra a co-founder of Walletmor. And according to the data from Dangerous Things, there have been more than 200,000 people that have purchased an implant. Whatever it is for opening doors. Whatever it is for sharing the information on an NFC tag, because we are talking about NFC and RFID of course. Or unlocking anything which is possible to be unlocked with the NFC; or log into protected systems. There are multiple applications that the implants can be used for including payments. So we are talking about hundreds of thousands at the moment.

[00:03:57] Mizter Rad: Hundreds of thousands of people that you're aware of.

[00:03:59] Wojtek Paprota: We're aware of, yeah.

[00:04:01] Mizter Rad: Okay. So what is NFC? Cuz you mentioned that. Let's unpack that a bit, because I think people don't understand what kind of technology this is.

[00:04:09] Wojtek Paprota: It's very important. It's very important to clarify to of course, explain everything very clearly. So, NFC stands for near field communication.

It means that a passive device, which doesn't have a source of energy can be connected through electronic, electromagnetic waves, with the active device, which has a certain, uh, source of energy. So it, to put it into simple words, let's imagine that your phone, which has a battery as a active device, and for example the tag that you have. The card that you have, let's say it's a business card, it's a passive device.

So you just tap your phone to the card, and you can see what are the business details that are programmed at this business card. That's one of the examples.

[00:05:00] Mizter Rad: Okay. So let let me, let me stop you there. So basically my credit card is a passive device. And my phone, or let's say the the machine that reads a credit card when you pay in a store, that's an active device?

[00:05:14] Wojtek Paprota: Yes. That's exactly how it, how it looks. And the active device due to the fact that it has a source of energy in phones, a battery inside. In the payment terminal is probably a cable that is plugged into the electricity. They're getting the energy from somewhere. And they are sending electromagnetic waves that are, that when they, they are meeting the pa passive device, for example, a card, or Yeah, an implant.

They are reading, they enable the power device. They're enabling the power, the, the active device, to read the data that is written on the microchip. Which is, let's say the processor of of the passive tag.

[00:05:59] Mizter Rad: So basically the implants, the technology that you work with is passive. The, the thing that you put inside of your skin that's in your hand, it's passive. And then you have your phone, that has the computing power is the active device. And, and, and the interaction of both. Exactly. Ah, okay. So explain me more how that works, because explain me from the beginning, cuz I think people are curious about all these 10 thousands of people. How did they do it? Or generally how does someone get an implanted device?

[00:06:31] Wojtek Paprota: So let's talk about device. Let, let, let's talk about the most simple and popular example, which is of course credit or debit cards or prepaid cards. It's all the same from a hard hardware point of view. The card itself, it's very simple. It has a microchip, which is similar to a hard drive or processor. That's the place where all the data is written and stored.

Then the card has also the antenna. The antenna is that component that enables the active device to read the data that is written on the chip. And on top of that we have this external layer, where the microchip and antenna is sealed in. And therefore once you tap your cards to the terminal, the terminal can read the details of your card, and then process the transaction. Because all the data matches the communication protocol that the terminal speaks in.

So it's pretty much the same in terms of implants. Because implants work exactly the same way. Like the only difference is that they are way smaller. And the outer ver outer layer is not the plastic, but it's just a biopolymer or glass capsule. In the, in case of...

[00:07:47] Mizter Rad: how, how big is it? Just so people have an idea, people that are listening, how big is an implant?

[00:07:51] Wojtek Paprota: Walletmor implant that we are offering for more than two years already is similar to a paperclip in size, because it has 28 millimeter, it, it's 28 millimeters long and seven millimeters wide. And of course it's flat. As flat as, for example, uh, my card.

[00:08:09] Mizter Rad: Okay. So 20, 28 millimeters long and

[00:08:14] Wojtek Paprota: seven millimeters wide.

[00:08:16] Mizter Rad: Seven millimeters wide. Okay. So, uh, now we understand that that microchip or that implant, sorry, has different components. The first components, the microchip. Second components, the antenna. And the third component is the outer shell.

Yes. And that is comparable to a credit card, cuz the credit card has sort of the same components. And the big difference here is the size of the device. So on the one hand you have the microchip, the, sorry, the implant that is 28 millimeters times seven millimeters. And on the other hand you have a big credit card that we all know how they look.

And now you have this small implant. What happens next then?

[00:08:59] Wojtek Paprota: Well, if I want to pay with that, I just tap my hands to the payment terminal. The place where the NFC reader is placed. And the connection is established. And then I pay for my shopping. That's how it works. Is that simple.

[00:09:12] Mizter Rad: So instead of, instead of pulling out the credit card, you just tap the terminal with your finger if the implant is on your finger. Or where is the implant normally?

[00:09:22] Wojtek Paprota: Well, the implant is of course, in my hand because of the convenience things. Of course it's the most convenient way to pay when the implant is near the end of the hand. In my case, it's at the top of the palm between the fourth and fifth finger. Of course, you can also place it in your arm.

That's where my first implant, the prototype was placed. In the same place where watches are being are being worn. But it's not super convenient because they're, you just need to like tap the terminal in a bit more inconvenient way. You just need to like, uh,

[00:09:59] Mizter Rad: you have to turn around on the,

[00:10:00] Wojtek Paprota: yeah, you turn around. And of course it was particular problematic when, during the covid times, where we had all this extra protective walls with plex or glass. So you need to like, put half of your hand inside of the counter to make a payment. So it's definitely more convenient to use it to have it at the top of the palm.

[00:10:21] Mizter Rad: Okay, but why would, why do you think someone, like someone listening to this conversation would immediately think, why do I want to do this? Why would I do that? I mean, I'm okay paying with my card. I know there are other use cases for the implants, but specifically for this case, why do you think people are doing it already?

Is it because of the convenience? Uh, or why, why people doing this?

[00:10:46] Wojtek Paprota: So there are three major reasons why people are buying the payment implant. Of course, the first one, as you mentioned, is the convenience, because you don't need to carry anything. Neither your phone, neither nor your nor nor cash, of course. No credit card, no smartwatch, nothing.

You just need your head. And we conducted a study and asked people, have you ever experienced a situation. Sorry, not ever. Have you experienced a situation in the past three months where you wanted to pay for something, but you didn't have the cash card or you had your smart payment device there.

And more than half of the audience said, yes, I experienced that kind of situation. So there is a problem, and if we are talking about the global scale even such an, let's say small percentage of the transactions that ended up being abandoned, matter. So that's one thing. And the other thing is convenience.

Sorry. The other thing is security, because you can always get your phone stolen. You can forget about your card. You can forget about the cash, of course. You still need to count cash and like, I don't need to probably convince anyone that cash is super inconvenient. But even, even, even if you're comparing it to, to phone or, or cards they are physical.

You need to manage them. And implant, you cannot, it's still physical of course. But you cannot get it stolen. You cannot get it lost. So the implant sort of breaks the... sort of inline relationship between safety and convenience. Because, for example, biometrics, it's the alternative that people raise oftentimes that: why don't we use biometric as a payment form?

Of course we can do that. But biometrics have a huge downside that once your fingerprint gets stolen. Or your iris can get stolen, you cannot change it. Like you have one fingerprint for, for your life. So therefore, once you lose it, you, you need to like abandon that, fully. On the other hand, we have those electronic tokens as payment methods, just those cards, phones and stuff. And you can always reprogram them, change a password. Change the PIN. Cancel the card, and then order another one with a different data.

But you need to manage them. So the convenience aspect is low compared to the, uh, biometrics. So implants have both the ultimate level of security and the ultimate level of convenience. And of course there's this third reason, which is purely, let's say, emotional or emotion emotions based, because people are buying stuff purely to feel good about themselves and just to have fun with them.

Like in the end of the day, that's the root cause of every purchase that, that we experience. And It's probably, I mean, not probably, it's for sure a certain portion of people that are those early adapters or innovators or even evangel evangelists, they are buying the stuff because they want to develop a along of the technology. And they are buying probably every new gadget that is released in the market.

So that's if you are, if one of the listeners is an evangelist, or early adopter of the new technology, they will surely know what I'm talking about.

[00:14:11] Mizter Rad: When you, when you say that biometrics can be stolen, what do you mean with that?

[00:14:16] Wojtek Paprota: So, for example, we are touching things all the time. If you leave your fingerprint somewhere and it's gets scanned, then assuming it's a where you authorize your payments, then if you enable the third person, the individual, to get the shape of your fingerprint, they can like, print it in an alternative method. And then use it as a copy of your fingerprint. And then you will not be able to use it anymore. Because you cannot change, you cannot reprogram your your fingertips.

[00:14:50] Mizter Rad: Is this happening already? Do you know?

[00:14:53] Wojtek Paprota: Uh, I'm not sure if anyone is using that for payment authorization. But I know about the cases like, like this even maybe it's not the most, let's say academical example, but even myth, Myth Busters has have tested that in one of the episodes. And they prove that mm-hmm.

it's, it's actually possible to, uh, to trick machines with that, those sort of scans.

[00:15:17] Mizter Rad: Mm. Okay. Once, I didn't know...

[00:15:19] Wojtek Paprota: once, once we get into the, like more advanced technologies and, uh, accommodate more factors into these authorizations such as the temperature, the 3D scanning of the fingerprint, maybe, but just maybe, it might be possible to avoid that situations.

But still there is a lot of job to be done in terms of bringing the security of biometrics, the highest level possible. At least as equal as tokens. Like the ones that we have with cards or smart payment solutions.

[00:15:52] Mizter Rad: And how about the iris? How, how can that get stolen? Because you also mentioned that the iris is also biometric, can get stolen.

[00:15:59] Wojtek Paprota: Yeah, let's just let someone take a very high resolution photograph of your iris scan and then it's done.

[00:16:07] Mizter Rad: Mm. Okay. That's interesting. Never thought about that. So now with the chip, with the, with the, with the implant, inside of your skin. Let's say, in your hand, how, I understand that this cannot be obviously removed easily unless someone chops off your hand.

but...

[00:16:24] Wojtek Paprota: yeah. Uh, and it's also possible to be removed once I go to the surgeon , or body modification specialist, and just get the procedure of removing it. It's pretty similar because to all about squeezing it out. Just like with, just like you do with the pimples. So it's very easy.

[00:16:43] Mizter Rad: But okay. So, but it is harder to remove, or let's say it's harder, harder to hack.

[00:16:47] Wojtek Paprota: You definitely cannot not do it yourself. And you definitely need to use some hard devices that will cost a lot, that will cost a lot of bleeding. And it's not the, the simplest solution. Like it's, it's a huge advantage for the, for Walletmor, because it's sort of a product that you cannot just throw away once you are bored with, with using that. Because you are sort of linked with that. Maybe not for the rest of your life, but for longer period, let's say.

[00:17:13] Mizter Rad: Okay. So we talked a bit about the convenience of it and, and the difference between maybe an alternative method for paying, that is, uh, biometric technology. But can you tell me, can we go back to the process and tell me how I, if I'm interested in getting one of this implants. And I buy your product on your website, Walletmor.

I get a package on at home, and I get the implant. What happens next?

[00:17:43] Wojtek Paprota: So, of course, the, the story ends when you are having this implants installed in your hand and you are able to pay with that. And in order to get it done, you need to schedule an appointment with one of the trusted specialists that we have. We have a network, a large network of trusted professionals from European Union, UK, and United States, and Switzerland, Norway as well.

And: you just need to contact one of these individuals and say: Hey, I have a Walletmor implant. You have been recommended to me as a special specialist who can conduct this installation process quickly and safely, because that's the most important thing to have it done safely.

And you just schedule an appointment and you go for that. It's pretty much similar to every appointment, whatever we are talking about, the medical appointment or piercing appointment. So let's not forget about it, that Walletmor implant is not a payment, it's not a medical device. Like it does not impact your body, your health, or your life.

Ability to leave of course in any way. Is just considered a permanent piercing, and therefore you don't need to be a nurse, or a doctor, or surgeon to be able legally install those devices. So that's why you can find multiple piercers and body modification specialists on our partners page. You just gotta go to waletmor.com/page/partners, and then you can see a huge interactive map.

And we probably have an expert, the, the specialist in every major European city.

[00:19:25] Mizter Rad: how do you make sure that you're getting reliable specialists to do the implant implant implantations?

[00:19:30] Wojtek Paprota: So I'm, I'm doing the verification process by myself. I always talk to the professional. I want to see the experience of that person.

We had cases where we like rejected people because if you are a piercer who just did some earrings for the last couple of months, it's not enough for us. You need to be experiencing that. Of course, if you are a surgeon, it's like out of question that you can do such, uh, procedures. So we, we pretty much ask for, for the certification and prove that you are a certified medical professional.

But if you're a piercer, we look for your experience. We look for your legacy. And in general the opinion that you have among the community. Because when installing implants, we are more talking about body modification, which let's say more extreme level of piercing. And therefore people from body modifications communities know each other very well.

It's like very thriving community and therefore, right, everyone knows everyone in as long as they are.

[00:20:30] Mizter Rad: What is body modification? Sorry to interrupt, but what, what, gimme an example of body modification...

[00:20:34] Wojtek Paprota: As I said, it's a bit more it's a bit more, uh, hardcore piercing. Those are the people that are not surgeons, but they're qualified and certified specialists to do some sort of body modifications, such as, for example, splitting your tongue. Or doing suspension or doing like a big, I dunno, peer ear lab.

Yeah. Or piercing in the more, let's say, non-standard places of your body. So everything which is extreme. Or even subdermal implants made of silicon. Those are the stuff that, that people put inside of the body. So everything which is, let's say hardcore piercing.

[00:21:13] Mizter Rad: Okay. I get it. Why do you think, like, okay, so you have an early adopters community of maybe this, let's call them quote on quote hardcore piercing agents or humans. And then maybe other people that like technology and they just wanna be at the forefront of what's happening in terms of technology. And they belief, maybe, that this is part of the future. But what happens with the rest of the people? Why do you think people, in general, are against putting in this case a payment implant under their skin. I mean, we are already putting so much under our skins anyway. If you look at my arm, for example, my right arm, I have a big scar that goes from almost my shoulder to my elbow.

Uh, I broke my arm and then I had a surgery, and they put an implant there. I have like 12 screws inside of my right humerus. And then at the same time, two years ago, I broke my ring finger, and I also got an implant there. Now this implants, I didn't question . I didn't question: hey, why are you gonna put an implant in my body? I don't want that.

I trusted that, that was the right thing to do. But of course, this is a, we're talking about a necessity almost. For my wellbeing. My life. To continue as it was before the accidents I had.

In this case, we're talking about payments. So it's not something that you really need necessarily. You know what I

mean?

So...

[00:22:50] Wojtek Paprota: that's, yeah, that's a very important point. So, of course payment implant has a limited value to the customer because you can only pay with that. Like of course it's a higher level of security, higher level of convenience. It gives you a sensation that you are someone like beyond human. And of course it's a super amazing value to someone who really understands that.

But if you are talking about the majority of Poland or any other country. US, European Union country, because tho tho, those are the major markets for us, you need to provide them with a more, uh, with, with higher value. So you mentioned of, and also you need to make sure that they understand what they are getting in implanted.

So you, you, you brought a case of medical implants that were put inside of your body. And people do not question anything which is certified medical device. Like as you did that. You broke a finger, you had to had the implant installed, and you didn't ask any question. Like, you know that this is a device that will make your life better.

And that's it. Like you can see clearly and those, this is also that what studies show that full social acceptance of medical devices that are implantable. Whatever we are talking about, the pacemakers of implants that are used for repairing the hearing. Whatever we are talking about some artificial materials that are being put inside of your body to stabilize fingers, hands, legs, whatever.

People don't question that. They consider that as a granted. That some, this is something that will improve their life. So that's actually the reason why we established the second company, which is called WalletMed. Because this is the huge discovery. Like we realize that implants are cool, like in my opinion they're super cool, but we can solve a much serious problem with smart implants. Which is diagnosing multiple diseases with the implant, with glucose sorry, diabetes and then glucose, of course being the priority. We can put smart sensors, biosensors into the implant. And based on the infrared light, we can measure the level of parameters the basic parameters of our body. Such as the glucose level, the insulin level, the ketones, the lactate, Vitamin D, c b E. Like you name it, everything they are...

[00:25:21] Mizter Rad: How advance are you? Sorry... how advance are you with this already? So, j just so people understand, you first started with, trying to, appeal to the, people that were interested in implanting this technology under their skin to make payments. But now you said, okay, that's...

[00:25:38] Wojtek Paprota: yeah. That, that's, that was the beginning of, uh, our journey with, with the implants.

Right. We started that in 2021. January, 2021. We released the first implants. The public in European Union. And as we spoke, we developed a thriving community of more than a thousand people that got the implant installed in their bodies. And they are paying with it. They are having fun. Like the implant was well received by the market in general.

Of course, we've got hate here and there. But as we spoke, it's, it's inevitable. But generally, we understood that there is a way forward for the implants. But how can we increase... we ask ourselves, ourselves a question, how can we increase the value of the of the product?

[00:26:23] Mizter Rad: ...the technology?

[00:26:25] Wojtek Paprota: Yeah. And we understood that we need to tap on the other market, which is of course medicine.

[00:26:31] Mizter Rad: Okay. So talk to me more about these, implants that, measure biomarkers. Like blood pressure, body temperature, glucose levels, yeah. Ketones, all this stuff.

[00:26:43] Wojtek Paprota: So, uh, it's of course another company, as I said, it's Walletmed. A project which is designed to like, of course release this new generation implant for measuring those biomarkers.

And we are using a technology called Raman Spectrometry. And Raman Spectrometry is a very advanced technology of course. And the guy who invented it got the Nobel Price for that, of course. It was almost 100 years ago. So it's quite the old technology. But given the advancement of the devices that we have, We are the way different scale right now. Because the way Raman Spectrometry works is that you use the infrared light to flush at certain place.

For example a substance that you are not aware of. Or even inside of the body. And then you are measuring the absorption of this infrared light. And then you can see how much of each substance is in that place that you are flashing. So of course, if you are flashing towards the place where you have only one substance, you need to know what is that substance and what kind, what would you like to measure?

Of course. Mm-hmm. So you are setting a certain wavelength. And of course based on that, you can, you can see how large was the absorption. And then based on the scale of light absorption, you can convert this data into the numerical data of certain amount of substance within certain place.

So in the body for example, if you are measuring glucose, ketons , vitamin 1, 2, 3, 4, 10, or sodium, potassium. For each of this metabol, we are selecting a different wavelength for of intra infrared light. And then we can see what's the absorption of each signal. And therefore the level of each substance.

[00:28:44] Mizter Rad: Okay, so when I have the Walletmed technology implanted under my skin, this would measure different biomarkers, basically, depending on what I wanna measure or, or what is the, uh, what, what exactly do I measure? Because you mentioned several things that you can measure, but at this measure point...

[00:29:03] Wojtek Paprota: you can measure everything which is in, which is present, like every substance, which is present in the, in the intercellular fluids. Because you are implanting the implant in the fascia tissue, so the measurement is not where,

[00:29:19] Mizter Rad: sorry, where are you implanting the implant?

[00:29:21] Wojtek Paprota: In, in the fascia tissue? Like in the fat, like just below the skin?

So there's no contact with the blood directly out there. There is a fluid, fluid that, it, it can be called the interstitial fluid, can be called intercellular fuel fluid.

So that, that's the substance that also carries all these metabolites that, that we just mentioned. And therefore once the implant is put securely there. And it's like all this material organic materials being accumulated around the implant, then when you flush the light, which is of course triggered by the NFC, then you can set up a certain parameter for which metabolite you want to measure.

For example, let's assume that you would like to measure a glucose level, and then you set up, okay, I wanna measure a glucose in the app. The app gives the certain parameters of the wavelength that needs to be used for this measurement. And based on one click, you can get the information of what is the level of your glucose.

[00:30:20] Mizter Rad: How advanced are you in the process of this, of develop, developing this solution?

[00:30:26] Wojtek Paprota: So, well, we are pretty advanced, I should say, because we have completed the conceptual design of the product. And now we are testing the mic macro scale prototype, on pigs. Mm-hmm. , I believe...

[00:30:39] Mizter Rad: on pigs?

[00:30:40] Wojtek Paprota: Yeah, because pigs are, let's say, the closest friends to us humans that are, let's say, commonly used in the clinical tests.

And therefore the data from pigs will be the most reliable that we can have. Because of course it comes down to the ethics. Because every clinical study need to be approved by the ethical commission, and therefore we are going for pigs. You would not be like allowed to test it on humans at that stage where we are only testing the macro scale prototype.

[00:31:11] Mizter Rad: And so far, what have you seen in the tests that you think is interesting?

[00:31:16] Wojtek Paprota: So far, so far we only have those bioinformatic data that has not been tested on any living organism. And our data and our, let's say expectations towards the studies on pigs are extremely promising. Because since it's the implants located inside of the body, there is no interference of a daylight. And therefore there's no movement inside as the material, the organic material accumulates around the implant.

And therefore, uh, if we compare it to the existing technology such as, for example, CGM system provided by companies like Abbot that has this company or project called Freestyle Libre. Or Dexcom. Or even the other company that does implants, but not using Raman Spectrometry, but using the hydrogel called Eversense.

They have the, let's say error margin around 9%. We believe we can get down to three. So it's gonna be super accurate, but we still need to test it.

[00:32:17] Mizter Rad: I understand that there's a lot of ways of measuring biomarkers. Let's say your glucose level. The market is already kind of full of solutions of how to measure, especially cuz there's people that you know, have diabetes and they have to constantly measure their, their glucose level.

So why is this solution, and not only for glucose, but the other biomarkers, why is this solution better to what it's out there already?

[00:32:44] Wojtek Paprota: So as we said, the implant is passive, so you don't need to charge it. If you want to have the measurement, you just need to tap your phone and get the spot measurement.

Of course, there's a different conversation where we are talking about continuous glucose or multi metabolite measurement, because you need to have the data every couple of minutes, let's say. And then you need the constant source of power. In a Freestyle Libre or Dexcom, it's used with a transmitter, which is of course the outer layer of the of the device.

And in our case it would be also simple, because if you would like to have the continuous glucose monitoring system, we will be providing you with a smartwatch or wristband. And it's very important to mention that it'll be a special one, because all the smartwatches that you have for smart bands that has, that have the NFC antenna, the, the antenna faces, the the top of the device.

If you want to pay, you just stop the smartwatch to the terminal and pay. So therefore it's sending those electronic waves like to the top. In our case, it's gonna be the other side. It's gonna be sending the waves towards the body where the implant will be located so that it can be powered and read.

So that's how we're gonna handle that. And since the smartwatch or smart band will be an active device, then we will be also able to accommodate multiple other features in that device. Such as linking options with Bluetooth. With your phone. Or even linking options with sorry, integration options with your personal doctors system.

So whatever there is information about, hey, your glucose, or sodium, or potassium level dropped down to the very extreme level, the emergency contact or doctor knows already that there's something going on with you and you need to be provided with a certain medicine, supplement, or even food.

[00:34:43] Mizter Rad: So right now, just to understand correctly. Okay, so you're talking about the active device, that would be the smart watch, for example. And the passive device, that would be the implant inside, under your skin. And that would help us humans to constantly measure, let's say, the level of potassium in our system, right? Is that correct? Did I get it right?

Is that happening already somehow with any other technology? Is this something that is possible to do already?

[00:35:13] Wojtek Paprota: Uh, at the moment, no, because it's very important to understand how this Raman Spectrometry works.

It's fully optical technology and therefore you need to have a very clear environment to measure that. For example, probably most of our listeners heard the news that Apple is working on a glucometer that will be included in the next generation Apple watch. And in fact, if you have a look at their patents that they filed this like thing, this patent has been there for five years or something. And it's something that they are working on tirelessly for many, many years now. And the case is that neither Apple nor any other company that is dealing with smart watches or smart, smart bands, smart bracelets, whatever it's, it's called, didn't manage to hit that. Because the interference of a daylight and the difference of skin among the society is huge.

And you can like get away of this noise only if you get under the skin. Because under the skin, pretty much everyone is the same. The skin is something that is a real difference between between like people around the world. And therefore therefore it's not possible to measure it through, through the skin.

You need to be there inside.

[00:36:36] Mizter Rad: So how, how does, how is that, how is that technology working? The, the Apple technology, just the glucometer that Apple is trying to release? How, how would that work?

[00:36:45] Wojtek Paprota: So the source of lights would be located at the bottom part of the apple Watch. And then the diet will be like flushing through your skin and measuring the absorption inside of the skin.

So it's like, so it's like...

[00:37:03] Mizter Rad: but also this technology Raman Spectrometry, but from the outside, basically?

[00:37:08] Wojtek Paprota: Yes, exactly. No, in a fully non-invasive way. So of course it's gonna be a game changer, but there are let's, it, let's imagine a situation that you are trying to see what's outside of the window, but having the curtains on. Without knowing how large are the curtains and what are they made of. So still it's very important to understand one more thing. The most crucial thing for the MedTech industry, which is the Meds... The medical device certification. Apple Watch needs to have at least 10% margin error in order, uh, sorry, maximum 10% margin error to be classified as a medical device.

And given the fact how many challenges they are facing in terms of this like Raman Spectrometry that needs to go through the skin, it's highly impossible that this Apple Watch will be ever certified as a medical device for glucose measurement. So, of course, it probably would be possible to like see let's say expected or average level of glucose. But I don't believe that they will be able to drop the margin error below 10%. It's just

[00:38:24] Mizter Rad: because, because they're not under the skin.

[00:38:27] Wojtek Paprota: Yeah. Because as you can, as, as I told you. When you are, for example, measuring the glucose level of the black person and white person. There is a huge difference of light absorption that skin does. Because skin in the end, they also absorbs light. And therefore it's very difficult to give the accurate data for the same people, given the fact that you are using the same device and the same technology and the same parameters.

[00:38:55] Mizter Rad: Mm-hmm. Interesting. Interesting. What about, what are the kind of. Mm, let's say evangelists when it comes to big corporations in the industry or big sectors of the industry. Do you find that sectors, like let's say, the insurance industry, the health insurance industry, would be some sort of evangelist or good, good partner for you or companies like Wallet Med to...

[00:39:24] Wojtek Paprota: yeah, definitely...

[00:39:25] Mizter Rad: bring this to the masses?

[00:39:27] Wojtek Paprota: Yeah. Everyone that has interest to decrease the cost of medical healthcare. Everyone who has interest in decreasing the even the death ratio of people who are dying needlessly of diabetes, should be interested in developing that. Because of course we are not only making a difference for the users, but we are making a difference to the systems. The whole world.

Because imagine how many lives could be saved, if people were aware of certain diseases that they have, but they are not aware because they are not willing to do regular health checks. And why they are not keen to those, those regular health checks because, let's face it, like, they are inconvenient. Always painful. Time consuming. And pricey.

And if you give people an alternative to do those health assessments only with a tap of a phone once every few hours or even days, it would make those assessments and diagnosis actually simpler and more effective. And in the end day, people will not be dying of the disease that they would, wouldn't be aware of.

So it's definitely an advantage for everyone in the system, even someone who is not like suffering from any major disease. Because in the end of the day, we all pay, like the insurance, we all pay taxes that later on cover the medical systems. At least in Europe. And it's actually something that is a true innovation. An advantage for the, for everyone.

[00:41:03] Mizter Rad: When you look at the current status of your industry, let's say the, the, let's call it the implants industry.

Just right now, it's very small. But as you, noted, it may be the future. Or you're probably a firm believer that this is gonna grow. Does it ever go through your head the idea, the possibility, that a government, a company or institution at some point oblige its citizens, or workers, to implant a technology like this under their skin, that contains maybe basic information of each individual, like the name, address, blood type, and maybe even the vaccine vaccination status?

[00:41:44] Wojtek Paprota: If that situation happens Walletmor, or Walletmed, will never be a part of that because I believe that everything should be done without forcing anyone to do it. So freedom is the value that I really like and I really believe in, and therefore, we will not put our hands into the business like this, so it's out of question.

Even if that would result in multiple financial or other benefits for the company. We trust our values. We believe that freedom is something that cannot be compromised by government. And therefore we will not be taking part of that project. Do I imagine a situation like this?

Probably, yes. Like we, we, we all heard about those books like New Brave World or 1984. And like sadly that's probably the direction where we are heading into. Sooner or later. And like everything that governments introduce is like, the... officially it's introduced in order to increase the level of safety for our citizens, but...

[00:42:48] Mizter Rad: right...

[00:42:48] Wojtek Paprota: let's, let's face it. This is just the argument to make sure that people will accept it. Right. And will not protest about it. So probably we will hit that sort of extreme level of control or invigilation. That's the word that should be used out there.

But definitely, we'll not be playing this, this game as a company or as an individuals, as a founders.

[00:43:11] Mizter Rad: Yeah, I, I understand, and I, I, I definitely agree with you that at least in my case, freedom is one of those strong values that I will never give up to anyone or anything. But if the technology is there there is a risk, as you pointed out, that something like this... maybe this, this following situation happens: when, you know, there's a new kid, new baby is born. And they receive an implant just because, like you said it's a matter of security. Or you're gonna be better identified if you get lost. Or if some accident happens you have the microchip there and anyone can know who you are. What kind of blood type you have. And maybe even what kind of allergies you have. And so when you go in the ER room, uh, even if you're knocked out, everyone will know how to deal with you. So that's kind of like the reasoning behind...

[00:44:09] Wojtek Paprota: there. Certainly, yeah, there are certainly multiple positives of that situation. For example, is the one you mentioned. But again, if someone doesn't want that, we cannot force him or her to use it. So personally, I would definitely like to have this information and would like the other people, whatever, those are the first responders. Or people in the hospital. Or people who are taking the payments, to have the ability and option to scan it and to provide the service to me in a convenient way. The the way I want it to, to have it.

But if someone has different opinion and different need, lets them do what they want. So, of course it would be amazing for me to improve my life to this, this point. And I don't have any like, Concerns about the security or privacy, because I know that how this works and how this data can be used. But for example, if the government tells me, okay, now I want you to have the chip with personal information for example: the history of your salaries, jobs, travels.

Like, I didn't want that, share that information with, with my government or anyone else apart from close friends and family. But I'm willing to like, share the information of my blood type in case or the other like very crucial health related information, in case something happens. So this is the security level that everyone should set for himself or herself.

In my case, it's probably higher than the average person. Like this willingness to, to share the data. But still, I also have my limits and I still do not want to share everything about myself. So definitely it's about the balance to be fined, to be found.

[00:45:57] Mizter Rad: This, this balance is, uh, super important. I think from, from an ethical point of view, I think each individual should have the freedom to say yes or no.

Problem becomes when a problem comes, when it becomes a normalized thing in the culture. You have these examples throughout history where things like getting baptized when you're a kid, even though you're, of course you're a kid, you don't choose if you want to get baptized as a Christian or not, or getting circumcised in religions like Judaism or Islam.

You're a young boy, or kid and you don't get to choose. Culturally, this is being normalized and you sort of should do it if you wanna be part of the culture. Just because your parents or the people around you think is normal. Or think is the right thing. So I I I also, I'm on the same boat as you. I fear that this could go or land in the, this kind of technological land in the wrong hands, in the wrong time of his, on his, of history and maybe become mandatory the same way it is mandatory to put implants or chips under your dog's skin, here in Germany. Just because they need to be permanently, permanently identifiable. And of course with dogs you kind of have like this thought. Okay, yeah, that makes sense. Cuz if my dog gets, gets lost you know, the police can read the microchip and know that I'm the owner. And they will call me.

But when it comes to humans that, that's, that's a bit more sensitive. Cause then, like you said, there's so many other pieces of data that you don't want to share. Or you don't want a store in a chip like that.

[00:47:40] Wojtek Paprota: Yeah. There's also very important aspect to mention about right now because we want, we are working on a chip or, or, or implant, I should say, which is as multifunctional as possible.

So you can have the same device that you can use for payments, but also use for those health monitoring things. But also, for example, you want to use it as a carrier of a data about your medical history. But also about, for example I don't know, travel plans. Or Loyalty cards of certain brands.

And it's very important, for example, to let know, to, to enable, for example, a dentist that you are u visiting, that there is something wrong with your particular tooth which like is, for example, on the left side at the bottom. And the history of that treatment was this, this, and this. But he don't necessarily want that person to read the information about, for example, your shoe size that you are wearing.

[00:48:36] Mizter Rad: Or your travel plans yeah.

[00:48:37] Wojtek Paprota: Which is, yeah, which is on the other hand important for the other partner, which will, would be like linkable with, with that system. So it's also important to set the boundaries as well. And we are taking that very seriously.

And as I said, like privacy and doing everything according to the customer's willingness and willingness to, to share data is, is what what we are developing and, and working a accord accordingly. So it'll always become it'll always maintain the priority position at our company.

[00:49:10] Mizter Rad: When, when you look at the demo demographics of the, of the user base of your product. Or of this technology in general, maybe not only your companies, but when you look at also the competitive landscape, what kind of, you already told me that you have some early adopters and stuff, but what other parts of the population are you positive that you will onboard or you will convince, so to say? In the next year...

[00:49:38] Wojtek Paprota: as I said, we are, we are developing this Walletmed project, and Walletmed implants, to capture market of diabetics and people who are willing to check other metaboloids. And therefore the social acceptance will not, will not be an issue because if you compare the implant, the permanent implants, to the solutions for measuring glucose level that are currently available on the market, there's a huge difference. Because you can either choose between stitching your hands multiple times a day. Or checking... sorry replacing the sticky sensor from Freestyle Libre or Dexcom every two weeks and pay huge amounts of money for that. Or, have the implant installed once and having it replaced every 10, 20 years, for example. So from a value perspective and let's say competitive advantages, we are the top of the game right here.

So probably it's as simple as it is, and every people, every person who is like thinking rationally about it will go for wallet, Walletmed implant.

[00:50:42] Mizter Rad: So what, what is it, what are you missing to, to have this take off?

[00:50:46] Wojtek Paprota: Uh, it takes time because we just started this project in August last year, and as I said, we are right now like preparing to launch the the pre-clinical trials in pigs. And we will have the empirical data from like living organism. And therefore, based on the outcomes of the studies, we will like start working on like the actual product that will be later on put in the subject of, uh, clinical trials for humans. And then receive the medical certification if everything goes fine. So it's just the beginning of a journey and you are probably aware of the fact that developing any medical device takes a hell out of a time. And it's, it's normal. Like it's, it's normal and it's definitely something that everyone understands or everyone who should understand, understands.

And we are fundraising. We will close, we are closing actually first investment round. External investment fo found round. Sorry. We are sort of, I was gonna, I was gonna with that, but we are going to like, uh, announce it officially. But it's a hard work. But still I believe that given the fact how advanced it is and given the fact that eventually people who should understand, understand what we are talking about. There should be no major issue once we have the actual empirical data with raising further further funds.

[00:52:16] Mizter Rad: I was gonna ask cuz I know clinical trials and in general bringing medical solution out to the marketplace it's quite expensive. So I was gonna ask about the funding. So you're basically getting external funding from investors and....

[00:52:32] Wojtek Paprota: yes, of course. Of course. The first, like first few steps were covered by profits generated by Walletmor.

And now since we are getting serious about it. We are raising external investment.

[00:52:45] Mizter Rad: And do you talk to the more traditional pharmaceutical companies when it comes to funding or when it comes to maybe having your idea validated or, yeah.

Like simply look at, from their eyes, what, what do they say?

[00:53:02] Wojtek Paprota: Even today, I had a call with one of the German companies. I don't want to like give the name out at the moment, but yeah, like the, the, you know, when you're talking to a corporation, which is like hundred years old, they usually have tens of thousands of employees. And they are being pitched by MedTech startup every couple of hours.

So they are generally very positive and wish our, our company luck. But in terms of investment, everyone says the same thing: that give us the re the reliable data, the empirical data, the results of our, your studies, and then we will talk. Like if that happens, yeah, we are totally on board. That's major, not only from a pharmaceutical companies, but in general from every like, serious player in the, in the game. Whatever we are talking about VCs or corporate ventures or even charities. So we need to, they need to be 100% sure, maybe not 100, but they need to be sure that there's no major like the, the hypothesis has been validated on a living organism. Yeah. But given the data that we have, we are fairly sure that it's just a matter of time, in our case.

[00:54:15] Mizter Rad: And so how do you see this in the future, in the next 10, 20 years? Like, um, in the fields of payment. Or in the fields of medicine?

[00:54:23] Wojtek Paprota: Definitely in terms of medicine, everything will be possible to be measured by the optics that we will have embedded in the implant. In terms of payments and let's say identification purposes, we will surely, like equip the same implant, the same medical implant with the other features such as payments, identification, logging, loyalty cards, documents, such as passport, id, driving license I dunno, WeWork cards whatever.

Like even Tesla keys it's, it's possible to, to upload to the implant. So we expect the market to be, let's say, very integrable. So that mm-hmm the company that is using any sort of identification authorization system form factor, would or should, be interested in like being also a part of the, of the game here.

That's, that's my hope and that's my expectation for the next couple of years.

[00:55:22] Mizter Rad: When I was preparing for the interview, I thought I had a thought and I'm gonna share it with you. And I wanna know what you think. Or if you have also thought about this idea. You know how, nowadays your success or throughout history probably, but in our times, our success or our sort of, Level of life quality that we have, is determined by several factors or circumstances. Like let's say the country you're born, meaning the kind of passport you hold. Or the city where you live, meaning the kind of life quality you have and the access to, for example, medical services.

So I guess the question is, do you think that at some point in the future, one of those factors that determine your success, happiness, or life quality, is how technologically enhanced is your body? Do you know what I mean?

[00:56:19] Wojtek Paprota: I think so. Yeah. Like that's, uh, I mean, probably the first word that you use for describing myself is transhumanism or transhumanist.

And of course, like there's this famous quote by Mr. Darwin. " You either adapt or die".

No doubt about it. And of course it's a very extreme scenario. But I definitely believe that how the, the level of body augmentation will be one of these factors that will impact our life quality. Because imagine you can diagnose any potential disease or even predict the disease at the very early stage.

Like it's something that everyone is seeking. So it's definitely something that will impact the quality of our life.

So of course, you, you when you have any disease whatever it's chronic or not chronic, whatever, it's like aggressive or not aggressive it causes some damage to your life.

And I'm not only talking about everything that is related to that disease such as treatment and spending time for that. Money and stuff. But it also impact multiple other dimensions of your life, such as social life, mental, health. Money, of course. Like the readiness to jump on another path of your career, like everything.

And it's super complex. Like having that part of our life compromised, compromises pretty much whole life. So we definitely want to avoid that. And probably like just to finish up this, this, let's say statement it was Ro Warren Buffet who said like a month ago probably that in his opinion, The only companies that will be multi-billion dollar companies in the future, like leading segment of the companies that will be multi-billion dollar companies will be MedTech.

Because in the end of the day, that will be the most important problem to solve because of course we have people from online dimensions. Like people provide, like companies providing all sorts of online services done with ai, some advanced programming and stuff. But, given the fact how technology is let's say, making everything simpler and simpler, everything which is available online will be cheaper and cheaper.

And therefore people will be spending and prioritizing their health much more that they are doing it right now.

[00:58:46] Mizter Rad: Interesting. So that makes sense.

[00:58:47] Wojtek Paprota: More money on the market.

[00:58:48] Mizter Rad: that makes sense. And there will be more time. More education. More awareness of how we can get healthier, how we can have better life, better.

[00:58:57] Wojtek Paprota: Those are not my words. Those are Warren Buffett's words, but I definitely second that.

[00:59:00] Mizter Rad: Yeah, that makes sense. Uh, do you think the, if, if that's the way we go is there a problem or do you find it a problem that big, maybe pharma companies are sort of like gate keeping their, their, their current status because they wanna keep, in other words, people sick?

[00:59:21] Wojtek Paprota: Uh, sadly, yes. Like I know from like firsthand experience about two cases like this in like our market, which is like monitoring mon monitoring those parameters. And sadly, That's, that's the way it is. Like still money is the name of the game here. And like...

[00:59:40] Mizter Rad: so how can monitoring become the the cash cow for, because of course this, this company...

[00:59:45] Wojtek Paprota: so for example, if you have a company like Walletmed that discovers alternative methods to measure glucose. Making it let's say 20 times cheaper than standard glucometers. What's the point for the market leaders to like invest in our company?

If it's like a self cannib cannibalization. Like they would prefer to buy it and just close it. Or put it into further research or whatever it's called. Exactly. More elegant term. And I'm aware, like having been in this market for a while, I, like, I'm aware of at least two examples, of the companies that ended in, in, in that scenario. Which is sad because those were very like promising and working very well, well received by the early adopters technologies.

And they were actually solving the, the real problems. But two major big pharma companies bought it. And put it into the shelf and that was it. So yeah, self cannibalization for those big pharma is is an issue. And that's why we are also taking into account the fact that, having such a partner on board may not result in having the same vision for the company as we have.

[01:01:03] Mizter Rad: That makes sense. So maybe it's not the right partner.

[01:01:05] Wojtek Paprota: Well, I, it depends, like we need to assess everyone. One by one. Like every, every company one by one. So we, I, I'm just gonna say that we need to have a look at that and be very careful. And it's not only about Walletmed or Walletmor, but every company, uh, that is truly changing the world in certain niche.

If there's something that entrepreneur who is listening to the, who is listening to that podcast may think of, please think about this. If your potential business partner will not be willing to block you down and kill your idea eventually in order not to self cannibalize.

[01:01:39] Mizter Rad: Absolutely. Well, Wojtek, it was a pleasure to have you here. Is there any last word or last thing that you would like to share with my audience?

[01:01:49] Wojtek Paprota: I'm just gonna say that I'm very happy to share anything about this technology and the project. So if there's anyone willing to talk further about anything about it, feel free to reach me out on LinkedIn, or through email.

My email is wojtek@walletmed.com or @walletmor.com. But I prefer to use Walletmed because it consumes 90% of my time at the moment. And yeah, I would be more than happy to discuss further details with everyone if someone is keen to, to talk to me.

[01:02:18] Mizter Rad: Absolutely. Well, thank you very much man. I hope you had fun and this was a super interesting topic for me personally.

But I hope also for part of my audience. Or most of my audience. I think is as we said in the beginning, maybe a controversial topic, but it could be part of the future. And that's why I invited you here at the Mr. Rad Show. I like to invite people like you that are working, with cutting edge technology. Almost in the frontier of, you know, do I hate it or do I love it?

So I wanted to have you here. Thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate your time. I learned a lot from you and I'm getting very grateful again that we managed to make this episode.

[01:03:05] Wojtek Paprota: My pleasure. Thank you very much for having me.

[01:03:07] Mizter Rad: Thank you. Have a good evening in Sri Lanka.

[01:03:12] Wojtek Paprota: Thank you very much.

[01:03:12] Mizter Rad: Chao

Chao.

Bye-bye

[01:03:13] Wojtek Paprota: Chao Chao bye-bye.